The Liminalist # 74.5: Kenosis, Standing on Nothing (with Michael Lesher)

1-_xjeFfEa5qe8143BrY8dlw (1)

Animation by Simon Prades

The second part of a conversation with Michael Lesher, on a culture of abuse hidden within a culture, ritualized sexual dominance, the difference between pedophilia and dominance as motivation, Alice Miller & parent-child relations, the norm of parents using children for satisfaction, the commandment to honor thy parents, choosing to align with power, images of God, choosing God the father, the masochism of worship, Capote’s In Cold Blood, the protecting guardian, Christians’ choice of which person of God to worship, God as power vs. God as truth, living God, believing in life, staying true to what you know, the word of revolution, the ultimate power, standing on the nothing that I am, kenosis, being swallowed by one’s fears, the need for critical thinking, children as scapegoats, the idealization of child-purity as the flip side of child abuse, survivors suicides, loving God more than human beings, multi-generational abuse, the burden of child-bearing, a world without trauma, Metzitzah B’peh, infant death due to religious circumcision ritual, the Jews’ law of their own.

Michael’s site.

Outtakes: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 00:19:09 — 17.5MB)

Religious ritual as rationale for child abuse, female conversion process, religious indoctrination and ritualistic submission, the value of a religious tradition.

Songs:  “The Kommema and his Religion” and “Of the Lakes,” by SunWalker;

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. Trackbacks are closed, but you can post a comment.

11 Comments

  1. Page
    Posted July 29, 2016 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I found it to be a pretty disappointing response from the guest to your nuanced inquiries about the legally protected genital oral suction ritual (a.k.a. sodomy) performed by some (not all) orthodox rabbis on some (not all) jewish baby boys. I’ve noticed that many people (those who would like to change the subject) like to make note that this metzitzah b’peh ritual is in decline (only 3000 boys a year in NYC alone have it done to them after all … according to the stats) so leave it alone, ok? But those stats are little old. I agree with the guest that the numbers are probably on the rise again after the NYC health department tried to put some rather lame regulations on the ritual (like parents must sign a consent form before having it done to their child). Many in the orthodox Jewish communities fought against the regulation and eventual worked to have it reversed once the new mayor of NYC, de Blasio, was elected. (He promised them during his election campaign that he would remove the regulations and so the orthodox Jewish community turned out to vote in big numbers for him). My point, I guess, is that there was surely a big increase in the number of the oral suction rituals, as Lesher pointed out, after their perceived “attacks against their ancient religious tradition”; it is a way to experience a kind of solidarity as a response to “the man”/ NYC health department.

    Lesher pointed out that the metzitzah b’peh first started when it was written down in the Talmud sometime in the early centuries of the first millennium. That’s not correct. That was only when it was first written down as a law that must be adhered to , but the truth is that it was part of the Jewish oral tradition / law for thousands of years before it was written down.

    The shocking thing to me is not that this ritual happens, but that it happens legally in just about all western countries. Inquiries into how and why this metzitzah ritual is protected under the modern “rule of law” is the starting point, IMO, or it should be, for all inquiries into how and why the child rape rings around the planet are able to continue to flourish under some sort of odd veil of protection as they are.

    Finally, I think that I’ve heard similar sentiments before that “they (the mohels /rabbis) don’t think of the sucking of the blood from the genitals of the baby boy in sexual terms any more than they would think of sucking venom from a snake bite in sexual terms”. Even if he’s right, it is a very odd, if not very disturbing, analogy and brings to mind strange mental meanderings about the connection between herpes (which some baby boys end up with after the ritual) and herpetology (the study of snakes).

    Whatever the case, though, it is an interesting time now that anyone and everyone with internet access can now remotely view the metzitzah b’peh ritual; a ritual which was extremely well-hidden for thousands of years in those closed communities and which led to all kinds of monstrous “telephone game” projections onto Jewish communities which surely led to hyper-grotesque copycat rituals by those who would here the trauma-inducing blown-up horror stories about what happened in the rituals of those “terrible Jews” who had moved next door. (not saying , though, that I don’t think the simple ritual isn’t an awful thing to do to “the field” of greater human consciousness … But at least now we can each and all bear witness to it if we each want to … via platforms like youtube. It’s bad but it’s not as bad as some the excessively violent horror stories that were passed along in the day before we could each witness it for each our own self. And so its time, potentially, to clean up some ancestral lines in a big way … for all those ancestors of mine who couldn’t see exactly what was happening in the metzitah b’peh ritual for themselves.) Also, it’s time, IMO, to really start making fun of the politicos who continue to defend such a ritual as something that should continue be legally protected under some sort of “religious freedom” laws. It’s a tough battle, though, to go up against the military-industrial-circumcision complex of America, but just chip away, I say.

    • thwack
      Posted July 29, 2016 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

      As long as its legal to kill babies in the womb; all the rest of us can do is put our hands in our pockets and stare at the ground when anything else bad happens.

  2. Page White
    Posted July 29, 2016 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Everyone knows about the abortion debate whether they are involved in the debate or not , whether they think it should be legal or not. There is no collectively acknowledged debate around the matter of the legal protection of metzitzah b’peh (oral suction of a male infant by a rabbi) which is the mystery that I am pointing to, thwack. Also, I am suggesting that because there is no debate on this, the child torture/rape rings that thrive under an occult protection can’t and won’t have any real light shone on them on any significant scale.

    • thwack
      Posted July 29, 2016 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

      “There is no collectively acknowledged debate around the matter of the legal protection of metzitzah b’peh (oral suction of a male infant by a rabbi) which is the mystery that I am pointing to, thwack.”

      Indeed,

      and Im pointing to all the people standing around looking at the ground with their hands in their pockets?

      *to protect the sheep you gotta kill the wolf, and it takes a wolf to kill a wolf*

  3. Page
    Posted July 30, 2016 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    thwack wrote:
    “and Im pointing to all the people standing around looking at the ground with their hands in their pockets?”

    Well excuse me if there is a part of me that believes that there is some possibility of a shared living-yewtopia; a nice and/but fearsome place , it is, I believe, that can only be reached, IMO, if there is a collectively acknowledged discussion around the metztizah b’peh ritual (a.k.a. the metzitzah ritual debate becomes a topic of discussion on the nightly news — which it hasn’t been — and a topic of discussion in the presidential election season … which it hasn’t been ). After all, Hillary Clinton was the Senator for New York from 2001 to 2009 , exactly when it began to be leaked that all those babies were reported to have caught herpes from the rabbi-mouth-on-baby-genital ritual in NYC, and some of those babies even died from the herpes complications. Did Hillary (the woman who cares so much about the children!) have much to say about it? Nope. Not at all. Not a peep. If anyone has any information on anything that she might have said about what was happening to those herpes infected babies in her state while she was Senator, please post below. I haven’t been able to find anything.

    Yes, thwack, some put people put all their eggs in the “abortion” basket and blame all the”bad things” that happen in the world on the fact that abortion is legal so shut up and put your hands in your pockets and keep your head staring at the floor when bad things happen in this world. Is that what you were getting at? I’m putting a lot of my eggs in the metzitzah b’peh basket , except I’m blaming the fact that all the “bad things” that happen in the world happen because of the mysterious “lockdown” on the collective discussion of the laws that protect those who perform the metzitzah b’peh ritual on infants.

    The modern media’s friends, “the powers that apparently be” apparently don’t want to help protect all Jewish baby boys from having their bleeding penises sucked and so they keep it out of the media and so, therefore, there are still very few people that even know that the metitzah ritual even exists as a thing, and so therefore, of course, they “the public-at-large” don’t know that babies can (and do) get sick and die from the ritual.

    It seems Mayor de Blasio of NYC has worked with the new head of the NYC health department, Mary Basset, to see that none of the metzitzah-related illnesses make it to the light of day either. Ever since they repealed the “parental consent form” regulation at the request of the leaders of the orthodox Jewish community in NYC, there has not been any more reports of a babies getting herpes from the metzitah ritual, which is by their design … not letting the press have access to the reality of any new illnesses from the ritual. “SHUT IT DOWN ! ” … seems to be what is going on here. See this article from the Jewish online journal “Forward” to see what I’m talking about : http://forward.com/news/321465/new-circumcision-rules-metzitzah-dont-ask-dont-tell/#ixzz3mokqkOho

    I guess I just want more people here in yewtopia with me; selfishly wanting to feel a little less alone, I guess. Jasun is here with me in yewtopia, I think, or at least he has access to yewtopia if he wants to be here/there as he’s openly and sincerely talking about, and inquiring about, what might be the driving forces behind this metzitzah b’peh ritual and the group-think protection of this ritual. No, yewtopia, is not a space where the metzitah ritual never happens. It’s just a space where everyone, and I mean everyone, is aware that the metztizah b’peh ritual is something that happens in our shared reality and everyone can remotely view the ritual (to verify that it is happening and see what it entails) if they each want to. Yes, I know, I’m a sucker for yewtopian visions but at least I stay true to them.

    • thwack
      Posted July 30, 2016 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

      “Well excuse me if there is a part of me that believes that there is some possibility of a shared living-yewtopia; a nice and/but fearsome place , it is, I believe, that can only be reached, IMO, if there is a collectively acknowledged discussion around the metztizah b’peh ritual”

      Ok,

      but can we start the discussion from a foundation of what a PERSON is?

      (BTW- its Jasun’s fault, he’s the one who forced people to consider the immaterial parts of human existence. I never really paid attention to aborted babies until his disembodied voice came creeping thru my speakers… he’s the one encouraging people to calibrate and increase their sensitivity…?

      Ok, so now what? I gotta listen to you try to talk your way AROUND it?)

      *sigh*

      Page, stifle your urge to get triggered by the abortion issue (whether you had one or not); the key is, how far are you willing to go to value the life of a child?
      as long as you have the option to kill it; anything else destructive that happens to it is just a function of that imperative; sterile and obtuse though it may be.

      Im a person.

      Thats how I know you are a person (game recognize game)

      The question is:

      when did you become a person?

      • Page
        Posted July 31, 2016 at 1:39 am | Permalink

        Dude, did I just get THWACK ATTACKED ?!

        Is this your person’s attempt to deflect the conversation away from the metzitzah b’peh topic that I’ve brought up here?

        In any case, whatever the case, I’ve pretty much said all I have to say about it for now, so have at it.

        • thwack
          Posted July 31, 2016 at 6:21 am | Permalink

          Cheer up Page,

          not everybody is avoiding eye contact with their hands in their pockets:

          The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a child in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines “child in utero” as “a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb”.[1]

          *You’re welcome*

  4. Jasun
    Posted July 30, 2016 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    From where I am standing, hands in or out of pockets, metzitzah b’peh is both a stark and sobering reality and a metaphor for the much wider stark and sobering reality of child assaults of every variety from subtle/energetic/emotional/psychological to out & out rape, torture, and murder. And yes to some degree (I don’t know what) this would have to include abortion, too.

    So then I can stand with Page in his yewtopia in agreeing that it is to me eminently desirable to help create a space, not where where child assaults never happen, but where everyone, and I mean everyone, is aware that they do happen and are fundamental to our shared reality and that we are all, even non-parents, complicit with that. I don’t think it’s necessary to see child assaults on Youtube, tho it is highly relevant that perhaps the only form of physical child assault you can legally watch on Youtube, because it is legal, is the metzitzah b’peh.

    As to ‘blaming the fact that all the “bad things” that happen in the world happen because of the mysterious “lockdown” on the collective discussion of the laws that protect those who perform the metzitzah b’peh ritual on infants,’ I suppose if we allow that this metaphor-reality is a symptom of an overall condition then maybe, sort of, except even to say that all the bad things happen because of child assaults would be leaving out how exactly the first child assault ever happened, so…. Perhaps it’s best to refrain from an actual value judgment about whether child assault – or the world – is “bad” in any ontological sense, and just work towards undoing the lockdown on seeing and admitting that it (child assault) is an intrinsic part of our current, disembodied (or unyewed) pseudo-culture…?

  5. Jasun
    Posted July 31, 2016 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    In any case, whatever the case, I’ve pretty much said all I have to say about it for now, so have at it.

    Really? What about the use of yew as a natural birth control, and other plants for early, natural abortion? Seems to me this is the missing connecting tissue between opposing arguments expressed here, as regards the continuum of child sacrifice being discussed?

    • Page
      Posted July 31, 2016 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

      “Really? What about the use of yew as a natural birth control, and other plants for early, natural abortion? Seems to me this is the missing connecting tissue between opposing arguments expressed here, as regards the continuum of child sacrifice being discussed?”

      Believe me, I was about to bring up the “Abortion Tree” … that Tree in the Garden, but decided that it was better to just hop off the thwack trolley train.

      Speaking of “how exactly the first child assault ever happened”, the church fathers of old would have had us believe that the first child assault was when Adam and Eve ate yew, clouded as their judgement was by that Snake, and so now, today, just about everyone seems to run, unconsciously, from the yews.

Post a Comment

Your email is never published nor shared. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

*
*