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First hour of a two-part conversation with Terror Management Theorist Sheldon Solomon (co-author of The Worm in the Core), on Ernest Becker’s Denial of Death, the human capacity for thinking abstractly & reflecting on past and future, culture as the means to manage death anxiety, negative identity, Becker’s Escape from Evil, Rene Girard and how culture is founded on sacrificial violence, Terror Management vs. the War on Terror, imaginary dragons, embracing futility, Camus & the Myth of Sisyphus, art and human expression, accepting our ephemerality, Hamlets & fools, it’s not what you do, the two flavors of nihilism, the baby in the bathwater of mysticism, meaning and mentalizing, what’s left after language, the mutual exclusivity of death and the self, contemplating our final thought, the twins of sex and death, how love conquers death, Sheldon’s 40-year marriage, annihilation anxiety and enmeshment in the mother’s psyche, the shift of dependency from parents to culture, different degrees of infant sensitivity, biological predispositions, the perennial X-factor, the raw vulnerability of infancy and the abstract goal of enlightenment.
The Ernest Becker Foundation site.
Songs: “El Mariachi” by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Ain’t No Grave,” by Brother Claude Ely; “The Plans We Made,” by Lonesome Bob; “When the Man Comes Around” (Johnny Cash cover) by Jennie Mahood.
Nice and thoughtful discussion of the topics. What really struck me personally is how much these attitudes, fears, triggers, etc. reflect personal experience and circumstances.
I’m 53. At age 15 i had my first, six-month go round with chronic and recurring asthma. I’ve spent years bed ridden, longer house bound. Been predicted to die a few times (for months on end, not just a bad few hours). Had a NDE at age twenty one, after that any number of paranormal experiences including contact with dead people.
Basically i’ve had my own death staring me in the face for decades – but i’ve also had glimpses of and contact with ‘the other side’. At this point, mostly i feel bored with freaking out about death and would really really like to just think about something more interesting. On the plus side, i am happy to be present with people who are sick or dying, and i realize how nice it is to have that company when you can’t go out and get it for yourself.
I wonder how much these freaked out attitudes about death have to do with the way our culture has ghettoized the sick and dying? We very rarely see it, except in the media in terrible forms – how can we come to terms with it?
My two cents.
Mrs. Eccentric,
I wonder what Solomon would have to say about someone like you who has had an NDE. Like Jasun, someone shoved Becker’s book at me when I was in my early 20s (I’m in my early 30s now) and I basically read the beginning of it and then put it aside in favor of, eventually, pursuing more mystically-oriented materials. From what I gather, I’d figure Solomon would shoehorn your NDE into the terror management framework and argue that you had the NDE as a defense against annihilation anxiety and that it was really just a hallucination to allay your terror.
I thought it was interesting what Solomon had to say about not wanting to be on the “debate team” that would have to argue that we are anything more than “moving meat that defecates” (I believe that’s his words). I’ve been rather persuaded by the NDE literature by Greyson et al that suggests the mind is not dependent upon the brain. When you delve into that material, you begin to see a whole other world out there beyond the dopey and myopic worldviews of hack New Age writers, religious fundamentalists, and “New Atheists.”
Of course, terror management theory would probably predict I’d come on here and attempt to defend the beliefs I’ve got that help me to cope with my mortality – and would probably reduce what I’m saying as mere handwaving to console myself. Which, as I listened, reminded me of Popper’s powerful retort to psychoanalysis – that it seems to be able to explain everything, which actually means it explains nothing. I’m going to mull that over a bit more because I’m not exactly certain Becker/TMT can be tarred with that brush as I’m not familiar enough with either to know for sure.
Nonetheless, I still think that PSI and NDE research powerfully suggests that consciousness is primary and not dependent upon the matter of the brain or matter at all.
I’m not sure this changes the fundamental dilemma which TMT addresses; consciousness may continue, but identity cannot. I’d say the same about Mrs. Eccentric’s expression about there being “something more interesting [to think about] than death.” How could there be anything more “interesting” (a mental concept) than our annihilation?
Put in another way, near-death experiences may have a kernel of truth to them, but from what I’ve read (such as Proof of Heaven, which I could only skim), once they are interpreted by the ego they become so soaked in terror-management religious fantasy belief Christian values that they are effectively meaningless, to me at least.
However, I regret that, in the conversation with Sheldon, I never got to what to me is the real horror of death, which is, at least potentially, leaving behind forever all those we most love, including or especially our own bodies. That mother load of grief and sorrow is I suspect the true terror, and, barring total surrender to life, only the most asinine fantasies of heaven can assuage it.
At bottom, we can’t know what death will be until it happens, because any seeming encounter with it in life is not it.
That said, I do often suspect we are all already dead; this seems to be the most likely scenario and the only thing that really explains how we are having an experience of life at all, book-ended by eternities.
Well, this brings up the question of Mrs. Eccentric’s interactions with “dead people.” Who/what are those “dead people” if they are not some sort of disembodied identity? Don’t our interactions with “dead people” argue that our identity doesn’t become utterly annihilated upon death?
I think this is true. Many NDE accounts seem to get an extra dogmatic/theological/metaphysical sheen to them as they get articulated again and again. But, to me, they suggest 1.) Mind is not dependent upon the body, 2.) Whatever this life/reality is that we’re currently experiencing as living people, it is not the end-all, be-all, 3.) Something far more vast is back of this reality and is apparently even more ‘Real’ than this reality, and, 4.) While we will likely have our identities radically changed by integrating our experiences in that greater reality into our understanding of ourselves, there will still be something that is self-aware about us and it appears that it will be far more pleasant to be that self rather than our current self, i.e., whatever is lost will be worth losing for what there is to be gained. (This is not entirely speculative. I think the gist of the NDE material en masse flows in this direction).
Oh, yeah. I’m horrified by the thought of my family members going before me and also of going before them. It’s utterly terrifying either way. I don’t think any of the stuff I’ve said above assuages any of that pain one iota. I am always surprised by religious folks who are so vulgarly quick to start telling people, “Well, you can’t be too sad. They’re up in Heaven at home with the Lord, after all!” I also think there is a sentimentality we tend to hold toward our life journeys – or at least I certainly hold toward my own. It’s very discomfiting to recognize that all the important places, people, and experiences of my childhood and adolescence (and, hell, even my adulthood) are completely unimportant on any objective level. I think there is always the desire to have one’s travails come to some great fruition. To turn all that stuff in for some crowning achievement that vindicates the whole of it. But, you know, perhaps having that desire denied us is actually the healthier thing. You use the word ego a lot and I think that’s a fine way of putting it. The ego is like a fuel source we may use to move us here and there. Without it there is no journey, but once you have arrived at your destination, what use is it? (e.g., It is no significance to the person I am now that my 15-year-old self liked grunge rock in the 90s and that he was so identified with certain bands and clothing styles at that time. Perhaps I will feel the same way about my body and my family and much of what I spent my life doing upon a so-called ‘life review’ in the future when my perspective is allowed a more expanded and informed point of view?)
I pretty much agree with this. Not gonna haggle here.
This is a very interesting idea. I don’t know exactly what you mean though. Can you clarify?
Anyway, thank you very much for this very entertaining podcast, Jasun. I found you thanks to your podcast on James Howard Kunstler, who I am fond of in spite of his tendency to be a curmudgeon and a denouncer of the millennial generation (of which I am a member of the vanguard). I tend to like John Michael Greer more and am even sympathetic to Greer’s metaphysical beliefs – of which I enjoyed listening to the two of you talk about on that episode. I hope to hear more of your thoughts on such things in the future.
Sincerely,
A new member of your audience cult
Weird… I tried to cite paragraphs you wrote. Guess that didn’t work. Hope you see what I was trying to respond to.
see above; tho at this point the discussion is getting quite involved, and would work better at the forum…
I am, if all proceeds without hitch, talking to JMG later this week.
which interesting idea did you want me to clarify?
Sorry! Wasn’t aware there was a forum until now. I’ll be sure to go over there for lengthy comments.
The interesting idea you brought up was when you said, “I do often suspect we are all already dead; this seems to be the most likely scenario and the only thing that really explains how we are having an experience of life at all, book-ended by eternities.”
Could you expand on this or point me to where you’ve discussed it already? It’s an interesting thought.
Also, I’m very excited to hear you’ll be speaking to JMG later this week. I began reading the forum thread regarding Freemasonry as I have recently petitioned to join and will be initiated this coming fall. JMG is a Freemason so perhaps you might be interested in kicking that around a little to see what he has to say on the matter.
Thanks again for a very interesting podcast/website.
Just to say I haven’t forgotten this, just taking me a long while to get to….
That’s alright. I’ll be interested in hearing your thoughts.
hi Philemon! “it seems to be able to explain everything, which actually means it explains nothing.” yeah, that is my general take on many theories. Any time you’re confronted with any experience, confirming or challenging, you can easily shoehorn it into your all-encompassing idea and go back to ignoring the world.
Frankly i don’t have time to discuss everything all other persons decide is interesting, in real or electronic life. But in my view there’s a big difference between saying ‘i just don’t have the time and i don’t find that topic compelling enough for me to get into it right now, best of luck.” or saying, ” well, i read fifty words on a screen and now i know exactly what you went through thirty years ago.”
p said:”Nonetheless, I still think that PSI and NDE research powerfully suggests that consciousness is primary and not dependent upon the matter of the brain or matter at all.” Actually this type of thing is what gave me much more confidence in the content of my NDE. The beings i encountered downloaded a vast amount of info at me regarding the nature of the universe, consciousness, as well as certain practices which i could follow if i so chose.
So when i came back i started to work with that material, keeping a critical eye on it all but not to extent of being a debunker – as best as i could. Anyways, the info has checked out for me, and many other studies and reports by various people tend to also point to these ideas having validity and merit.
btw, these theories and practices were more in line with Vajrayana Buddhism, though i am a Californian raised methodist and unitarian.
Jasun, of course that doesn’t alter the fundamental dilemma. All i’m saying is if you take the time to expose yourself to some actual life experiences involving the issue, instead of simply obsessing over it mentally, you may in time find yourself with less of an emotional charge over the whole thing.
But then you also won’t get an adrenaline rush out of contemplating your own annihilation, so maybe not.
“Proof of heaven”? That’s like saying you don’t believe in ufos or aliens because you watched “ET”. Try checking out the International Association for Near Death Studies.
“… real horror of death, which is, at least potentially, leaving behind forever … our own bodies…” Actually my own NDE was quite terrifying, though that word seems so tame in comparison to the experience. It wasn’t the love for my body so much as being without any familiar ‘compass’ to grab onto, whatsoever.
I’ll tell you this, though from past experience you will simply discount it someone may find it useful. I did NOT lose my identity. In fact my commitment to compassion, as fumbling as i may be in enacting it, helped attract to me the aforementioned beings who offered help. When i accepted, they help my consciousness in a way where i could stay sane in the moment. Further practice since then has furthered this capacity, which is very helpful in catastrophes and upsetting situations.
Your terror at losing the body will also lessen if you practice identifying with other qualities you possess/emanate, not just your body. Creativity, compassion, love of cats, patience, stubbornness, musicality – all these type of qualities are even more you than your body. They do not die with the body.
All of these ideas can be worked with by individuals so they may judge their truth/usefulness for themselves.
There’s several assumptions in the above; for the record I don’t contemplate annihilation in the sense of complete non-existence (what’s to contemplate?). All I know beyond reasonable doubt is that in death “I” as I currently experience it will cease to be. My own sense is that what’s experienced will be much greater, not less, and perhaps infinitely greater; this is by no means less terrifying than annihilation – in fact it is infinitely more so, because without existence there can be no terror.
I have also had similar experiences via dreaming of being without a body and the horror of not being contained, a truly terrible sense of panic and the corresponding immense relief on being able to return to a body. I don’t relish the possibility of entering eternity in such an unprepared (attached?) fashion.
On the other hand, during the same period I had another waking dream experience of feeling blissfully liberated without (sense of having) a body. I suspect it not only can go both ways but has to, that is, only by fully (re-) experiencing the terror of becoming disembodied can we fully embody as the life force itself, or that which does not and cannot ever know death.
What may be unclear to some about the positions I seem to take on these and other subjects is that they are somewhat, and even primarily, strategical. Unbelief is, to my view, a much healthier state (liminality) for consciousness to be in. or as Charles Fort put it, the creations of mind are not subjects for belief.
As for (my beliefs about) identity continuing, it depends on the terms. If we mean awareness, then OK. if we mean a self that has (is defined by) preferences, then I’d have to say, Christ forbid.
Thought provoking and compelling. I especially liked the sex & death connection part of the discussion — not many people talk about it enough, yet it begs discussion. Most people’s basic fears are about these two facts about human life. Even if one chooses a life of celibacy, they will probably still have a sex drive, even if they don’t act upon it. We can say that the sex drive is unavoidable, like death.
Satanic sex rituals, involving sacrifices have latched onto this connection, obviously.
Looking forward to the second part of the discussion.
p.s. the artwork is really good
thanks; esp. for noting the artwork.
What a beautiful transmission. Literally brought to tears during the Johnny Cash cover.
Very much loved the part about embracing futility.
“the…goal of enlightenment is to be that vulnerable or surrendered that we would be living in a universe that seems to have our annihilation as its primary agenda”. Wow.
Watching “Flight From Death” now, after I found out Sheldon was featured on it.
eager for pt. 2
“the…goal of enlightenment is to be that vulnerable or surrendered that we would be living in a universe that seems to have our annihilation as its primary agenda”
that was an unfinished thought; I wanted to say, “and yet not be in any way defended against it” or some such.
If the first part of life is about building up an identity, then the second would be a dissolution of that identity. This seems to be where many people panic and resist the dissolution process — That’s probably at the heart of the ‘mid-life crisis’. Instead of surrendering to the dissolution process, many will try to bolster and reinforce their identity — get a younger partner, make more money, buy a bigger house, become more entrenched in a belief system, etc. Certainly, it’s not easy to accept this dissolution process — declining energy/health, a devitalization of the senses, losing one’s looks, fewer friends, and fewer choices are not very attractive options to most people. It’s understandable why the ego would resist. What’s futile about life is hanging on to anything.
My fear of death isn’t so much fear of losing my identity or my thoughts. I’m more afraid of the suffering involved. I’ve nearly drowned twice, and my fear is about the last moment when I can’t get air. I’m afraid I’ll panic at the last moment and not surrender to the process — thereby extending any suffering.
hi ummshams! “…my fear is about the last moment when I can’t get air. I’m afraid I’ll panic at the last moment and not surrender to the process — thereby extending any suffering.”
oh dear. i know the feeling, having come close to death myself. Nothing beats having actual, visceral experience when your brain is set on worrying about terrible things.
For me, learning how to relax has been very helpful. I’ve done it largely through yoga, but you can do progressive muscle relaxation as well (just search online). take care, steph
Thanks very much, Steph 🙂