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First part of free-wheeling conversation with “Balloonman” Bill Morrison, on balloons and singing, free-association & pre-verbal expression, educational backgrounds, Bill’s early memories, in the sandbox & boxing ring, Victorian week at UK school, Bill living in Laurel Canyon, door-to-door salesman, vowing to be a comedian, improvisation & liminality, doing without an act, operating in survival mode as a comedian, stealing from sources to create material, guts instead of material, being a somebody & being a nobody, going out on the wire without a net, the endless challenge of spontaneity, Dave McGowan, Laurel Canyon, social engineering, weirdness in the canyon, defending the official story, how can we be fooled, Leonard Cohen as an example of cultural engineering, the many agendas of the CIA, something insidious in the air, who are the mind-controlled, Wild west government, sickness in family and government, Jasun’s family background & UK hidden history, Bill’s extended family, a teaching of self-involvement, a valley of intrigue, the world as it seems, living is a farm, infiltrated communities, an amalgamation of memories, the layers of identity, the final cover-up, the voice of the soul, doing cover versions, being freed up by the script (identity), the absurdity of the world, being a good person, Bill’s dark dreams.
Songs: “El Mariachi” by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Teenage Strangler,” by Philo Gristle and the Wayman; “Let the Mystery Be” by 10,000 Maniacs & David Byrne.
Some vague late night impressions–This conversation highlights several complicated and peculiar aspects of the generation gap between Boomers and X. Jason, are you familiar with Douglas Rushkoff’s book Present Shock? He talks about what he calls “digiphrenia” and “fractolnoia.” Roughly, this has to do with an effect of the information age in which our ancient pattern recognition skills begin to connect dots and reveal hidden and ultimately impossible to know narratives. Of course these concepts weren’t so ubiquitous for generations pre-information revolution. For them things like Truth will never be as plastic in meaning as they are for us.
The example of the Laurel Canyon conspiracy is a good one. Bill’s position is “I was there.” And you can hear in the emotion of his voice that that’s important to him and his sense of self–those were special times that he’s quite uncomfortable examining it the way you are.
Another undertone that might be worth noting is that the concept of a scene where a counter-culture scene exploded (in this case laurel canyon in the 60’s) appears suspicious in part because it also involves a level of success that is no longer available to most cultural creators of today. I’ve often heard you express frustration with the lack of connection, recognition, and success–whatever that may look like–that you’ve experienced with your work. For years those kind of feelings seemed to manifest in young people as retromania, and nostalgia for what was missed. Even though you seem to have come to terms with a more marginalized cultural position, I can’t help but wonder if the willingness to believe in things like the Laurel Canyon social engineering conspiracy (as entirely possible as it may be) could also coming from a place of envy. In other words, it has something to do with the narrative that generation X got screwed… And that to a large extent the boomers are to blame. Does that make sense?
At any rate, a great illustration of a giant generation gap in this conversation. There is no way Bill can ever know the kind of amnesiac uncertainty about reality that is to some degree a part of every young person’s day to day life, regardless of the level of trauma they’ve experienced. It is the world we live in now. And there is also no way for you to have access to Bill’s direct experience that is so close to his heart that he’d prefer to just let it be. I enjoyed this as well as the Ann Diamond conversation for making visible the dichotomy between the naiveté of one generation and the paranoia of all that followed. I’d be interested to hear you have further discussions along these lines with people ages 60 and up as it’s something that comes up a lot.
Thank you for your work, Mr. Horsley.
I can’t help but wonder if the willingness to believe in things like the Laurel Canyon social engineering conspiracy (as entirely possible as it may be) could also coming from a place of envy. In other words, it has something to do with the narrative that generation X got screwed…
Undoubtedly there is envy involved & it’s even one of the few ways in which I am aware of committing that particular deadly sin, regards my lack “reach” as a cultural voice. I am not sure about the idea that success is no longer available to cultural creators of today as it was back then. In what way?
There’s a grand irony, comedy, perhaps potential tragedy, in my own pursuit of recognition, which is that part of it now entails a desire to prove myself wrong, or at least force myself to adjust my beliefs around the notion that cultural figures are always given influence for set reasons, to force myself to adjust this belief by becoming more successful.
In fact, the division you speak of is not only generational, it exists in me also: I still don’t believe that it is all being manipulated behind the scenes and that anyone who has contributed anything meaningful to the culture is somehow implicated in the systems of abuse that are the hidden machinery of said culture. I can’t believe it, and yet I feel like I know it to be true. It’s a very strange place to be in, and I felt with Bill there was also something ambivalent also, that he “knew” my proposal about Laurel Canyon was ludicrous, and yet he couldn’t quite believe his own certainty. Even the way he described the Canyon suggested that he knew something he wasn’t aware of.
Amnesiac uncertainty is a great phrase. Talking of generations makes me wonder how consciously generational characters might have been engineered, MKULTRA-wise, even down to the names?
I suppose there’s a new generation for whom, since everything is a conspiracy, nothing is conspiracy?
Well, this is a bit off to the side but regarding: “I am not sure about the idea that success is no longer available to cultural creators of today as it was back then. In what way?” I suppose I’m referencing the kind of sentiment Ezra expressed about having produced massive amounts of music that will go unheard. This kind of complaint is something I hear a lot from friends. We are playing to an empty house and an empty future. I often here people complain about the lack of opportunity in the city they live in, but I know they are really complaining about the times they live in . . . Now as far as I’ve observed this has to do with population (“too many” artists?) and also the sheer speed and hunger of our media culture. Consider this, from Present Shock– “No sooner is a new culture born than it is discovered by trend-setting Vice magazine, covered by the New York Times Style section; broadcast on MTV; and given a book, record, or movie deal. There is no time for an artist or scene to develop unless those involved take extreme measures to isolate themselves and avoid being noticed. As a result, there is no time to develop the layers and experiences required for a genre to evolve.” That kind of success smells more like failure to me. You can see that just by it’s effect–short-lived, and usually harmful to the creators. Culture used to be allowed to ferment over generations. Mid 20th century there seemed to be a bifurcation point that lead to a “counter culture” and the splintering just continued from there. Most artists I know are unable to find their audience, despite the early promise that the internet would bring people together. But you’ve got a podcast and it’s reached me, so there is irony in what I’m saying. At any rate, money doesn’t relate to success like it did for previous generations.
Yes, I quite appreciate your desire to prove yourself wrong. The unspoken figure that looms in a lot of this is the Trickster force, who of course resides permanently in the liminal, and that goes right along with your pursuit being both comic and potentially tragic (I’m curious to see you expand on that detail if you could). I could conceive of a process of playing the fool, tricking one’s self, and letting go of the concept of belief all together as a means of achieving a different type of success that’s more meaningful and personal than we typically think of with that word.
Yes, I also sensed a reluctance in Bill to trust his belief, but he was even more reluctant to examine that further–as though in some wise way he knew that path is a dead end and that no ultimate conclusion could be reached. Those aren’t his words of course but it’s something I’d probably agree with. Nevertheless, there must be something in the journey that is of value. And maybe we have no choice but to take that journey as needed–since that division is inside the individual as you said.
Since listening to your recent podcasts I’ve come to envision Leonard Cohen as a type of trickster, capable of being two things at once . . .
Names–like names of people? or names given to generations?
“I suppose there’s a new generation for whom, since everything is a conspiracy, nothing is conspiracy?”
Yes, my impression is that this will be part of the millennial liminality. However, i dare not speculate on the impact this will have on culture–more nihilism and apathy? Perhaps, or perhaps that’s due for some backlash.
Names of generations, maybe planned in advance, ie, “OK, now let’s create a generation that will be jaded and disaffected!” “Yeah, let’s call it generation X!” (and send RHF signals to some writer’s brain so he comes up with the name all on his own). And so on…
Like I say, it’s both impossible to believe this sort of reframing and impossible not to, because the evidence has all but destroyed the old framing of “independent artists expressing their souls and capturing the zeitgeist,” the old frame that leaves no room at all for social engineering or even the overweaning forces of capitalism.
It’s like we are trying to create coherent connective tissue between dual and non-dual awareness, or something. (Hey, there’s my next Tweet!)
I first encountered your work a few years ago when i read ” being the one ” and was mightily impressed by it . I would love to read ” blood poets ” but am struggling to find a copy . I sometimes feel you have successfully hacked the collective unconscious , the matrix , whatever you want to call it , and you sense the moving currents of archetypes and associated synchronicities that shape our material world . Jung himself said that this can lead to paranoia and the sense that all is an orchestrated conspiracy . Take it as a compliment that our dysfunctional insanely abstracted culture is steadfastly ignoring you !
nice you used the intended title of matrix warrior there. I like to think that Blood Poets is somehow holographically represented by SEEN & NOT SEEN & that by reading that you no longer “need” to read BP. A case of an author eating his own vomit and making prior up-chuckings obsolete.
there’s a parallel between the idea that being marginalized is proof of being successful and that of a supposed lack of evidence proving a cover-up – or perhaps that any systemic crime being exposed is & must be part of the larger plan of those who run the criminal system. not agreeing or disagreeing, just throwing it out there, along with the thought that I hope I won’t respond to becoming less marginalized with doubts about my own integrity. Or perhaps I hope I WILL respond that way?
“am i a fool?” sometimes i wonder about this as well, i think maybe thinking types in general espouse this train of thought at one time or another. it’s natural really, even more so as we get older, and as our frame of references lengthen in tandem with our past choices and consequences while we blunder around in the world. even at, or should i say, despite my middle age i can’t say for sure if i am in fact a fool. lately i’ve been finding it easier to care less about this question and more about accepting my own humanness — i see now that this is an actual word, and weirdly enough, i find that reassuring enough to continue–
if i may be so bold as to venture my impressions after listening to this interview with bill. i’ve been listening to these podcasts of yours jasun with increasing fascination. i get the sense that you are as interested in the conversations as much as i am. yes, there is that to be sure, but more than that i thought. not so much for the outcome, and by that i mean, not for the sake to hammer home your point of view, but a genuine interest in understanding a thought, or a different opinion or why it is that someone feels the way they do. i guess it’s conversing for its own sake, which by its very nature, predetermines the conversational interview style to be more of a relationship in progress. i really enjoy this– once i jumped the hurdle of feeling a tad voyeuristic– i figured out that this in turn allows for me to become a witness of sorts. quite a unique privilege which might have escaped me entirely, that is, until this very interview with bill.
i had read with interest bill’s comments from time to time and he struck me as an educated, wise. thinking person. we all do this, form judgements when we see a familiar name pop up in the comment section and we surmise, or try to imagine the person on the other end of the screen. i’ve always felt that with your audience in particular, i was occasionally more interested in what they had to say about a given guest or topic for the simple reason they were as liminal as i was, or am on any given day. so, having bill as an upcoming guest was something i looked forward to a great deal.
when i read your title,”am i a fool?” my curiosity was even more piqued. i thought, never, not bill, and then not OUR bill, how could that be, what was jasun thinking, i must be more liminal than i thought!
now that i’ve listened twice, and perused bill’s channel i am more sure than ever why i am writing this. and, i might add, since i am betwixt you and bill in age, you might even be tempted to defer to me simply by virtue of my liminal age perpective. honestly, i have no idea what that means except that i’m hoping it makes me a faithful witness at least.
i loved this interview, it allows for a side of bill not evident in his beautiful written comments. bill, unlike cohen, stands on his own, has no handlers, pr peeps, he is in short, a human being with feelings, opinions of his own, memories all born of his having lived, and therefore not hatched in an attempt to influence my demographic buying potential, or even to deaden or quell my faith in myself. i am so tired of listening with fake raptitude to some dubious well known personality in any given field of expertise. really i am. we are willing to entertain the notion we might benefit from someone who knows more than we do, it’s in our nature, and yet how many times do we go off on a tangent reading, listening and all for naught. it’s what we have been led to believe. when i listen to bill, or ann, or others of your guests, i may not agree with everything but i never stopped to ponder if they were told to say that, or wonder if i was meant to believe, or swallow lyrics to give credence to fake persona created for the benefits of mass consumption and profit.
why should i not be enamored of the idea that i can learn from the REAL thoughts, words and deeds of equally REAL human beings, not prefab cut outs that lack substance?
i think i would be a fool to do otherwise.
bill, i loved your questions to jasun that began with, “what do you think?”, and i loved that you could tell the world that you love him. and i love that you love birds, and you lived your dream. well, i might as well say it, you sir, are lovable.
I got prickly eyes from that one.
“Yes, I quite appreciate your desire to prove yourself wrong. The unspoken figure that looms in a lot of this is the Trickster force, who of course resides permanently in the liminal, and that goes right along with your pursuit being both comic and potentially tragic (I’m curious to see you expand on that detail if you could). I could conceive of a process of playing the fool, tricking one’s self, and letting go of the concept of belief all together as a means of achieving a different type of success that’s more meaningful and personal than we typically think of with that word.” Fritz Fangly talking. Directing to Jasun that issue:
Define terms first, After me. For my convenience anyway. Shaman comes to mind, just to get that picture of trickster out of the way, but it does cover a lot, don’t it? The healer but is that the thing? How else could it not, that picutre of shaman emerge? Lots of mystic colorful history on a shaman’s back. But anyway, trickster, lower case emphasised, due consideration that most of us likely do it but not professionally. Set out to be fooling somebody all the time. In order to be even just peer perhaps. A professional trickster to me is a person who is main line driven to fool people, all of the time, not to entertain except mostly for themselves.
Now is a ‘lesson’ an or ‘the’ important thing? Nah. It is the action. There is a Zen Master aspect to it, I suppose. Whap! You think too much! All is illusion yet very real eh. Some folks simply got to do it. Pull stunts on folks. Not sure where they come from. Like it is bred in. Without the wink but the wink hidden, on the verge maybe of winking but not, instead underscoring the foolerly. Wink, wink. ‘God’ makes folks like this for some darn purpose, Name it. Who shape shift and . . . trick you. Republicans know what I am talking about. Making ‘things’ that were pretty stolid, right there to touch and lay down in qnd wake up to the same landscape pretty much, count on it, exactly the opposite Where am I? When forthright manners platformed on proven normalcy, science to live by, that is what we want, this is the thing. Prick me I bleed, real stuff. I’ll meet you at nine. I exist. I am alive I tell you! Alive! Off tangent but worth mentioning relative to trickery, and by the way, therefore I AM! My person is encompassing ALL elements inside or ouside of elements that aren’t maybe at all, except labeled as such by credible folks claims. What you see is what you get, heh.
For this example focused on Trickster, and maybe even relative comedy and tragdy, both sides of the foolerand foolee. My ‘sane’ input to me is tricked askew. And all the otherside and the rest infected by strong trickery outside the general trickery of IT ALL is that which I turn to or with. Tricked into belieivng a trickster truth, whom or whatever, doing IT/it to me right in front of my eyes. And I am buying it! In this sample here anyway because for the moment the trickster expression supercedes any truth I know is truth . (Do I know the truth? Yes! Really I do. Oh, yes?) Yet a Trickster, what, whomever, has blinded me from my lifetime gathering firm faith that this and that is the way IT IS. Outside that foundation of my truth is the trick in which I can become tricked in to believing is greater than all of my own tricks that make me up. For the moment I AM lost to the marvelous trick. (Hello? Are you there?)
No Trickster lesson is necessary to be served. Devoted to an energy that powers urge to always fool someone is enuf itself. A Trickster big T make a thing’ of it, tricking, knowing it is a trick, making believe it is not. It is a tricky thing, tricking folks all the time. Being a Trickster, big T or even small t. Moving about, into and thru you, to see, to force a result. “See I fooled you!” Truth will not or should not be expected from a Trickster. Tricking another into a certain way of looking at things, a belief, makes no difference if it is true or false to the Trickster. Any premise erupting from a trickster at work, doing what a trickster does, that is the ‘truth’. Truth this momet! In that the truth is in our face, what is alive and working, trick or not. Beware the tricking trickster. Tricking is the job. All the time, tricking. Purpose and intensity, doing trickery on folks, for whateve reason. that could be considered wicked eh. I am not talking hanging on a gallery wall either, that’s trickery of the arts and craft kind. Rather folks and their following who want to persistently disrupt your reality to prove the point of their trickery. Which is the trick making you believe in the painted picture is perhaps more real than real.
Tragedy and mirth, well, to get to any truth worth its universalality, the closer to the real life we all know and live in our individual broad incremental divided vast spectrums of dimensions to us, the more real the artificial expression revealing the life of real/unreal that we live–maybe. And or the mystery, what comprises the difference?
We laugh, we cry is the norm. Folks will hold in the emotions we be, the great expanse of our emotions, or let it out according the the givn pace of each System ”installed and available each personality. Any play worth its salt to spend valuable time watching is comic/tragic. Comedy emphasised and welcomed because it has the depth of actuality is the tragedy underforce on which the ‘joke’ is scripted, I would suppose. Take down the ‘stuffed’ shirt neighborhood on a banana peel, betcha.
It seems to me we are tricking ourselves to go from this to that in terms of believing the next best move is the trickery imposed and thus is the accumulated ‘aggregated’ tools of trickery in my bag of tricks. And the grist to trick myself into continuing doing that which I have little Will but to do. ‘Programmed’ as such, direct programming by the Great Beyond Source say, gives us our destiny. Imposed on each of us due the fact we exist at all in our disparate circumstances. That fact is experentially the case, proof positive; we move to our apparent end, different but the same, death preordained pretty much guaranteed.
That anyway, is my figuring of IS IT or not. My kit bag of tools and methodology that I use to ‘trick’ MY SELF INTO LIVING IN THE NEXT ABSURDITY. Perfectly acceptable, better than ‘nothing’, really. But that ABSURDITY terms of the trickery of believing and acting on what I see in front of my eyes. from the viewpoint of myself, this moment, and who, in most elements filling of my time and space, this moment I see in my apartment, all of it, is to a great extent manufactured by me. Arrangement of furniture and acquisition of it is all me. According, and now to complete this foolery, that what is the trickery, if you will, ‘forced’ me to be me beyond my will, since it is my destiny that finally decides.
The real pro Trickster, to me, aside artists of all natures who perform their magic so good it suspends a viewer/listener’s reality of the real picture in which we live, for moments anyway, presumes for an instant that a trick is the real and that we be zoned within the magic of the trick. Thus comes suspension of belief. Thus, what is real?
I’m talking here, outside of my offshoots into tangents, professional tricksters primarily. About these folks go about doing it, tricking like a blocking coyote under a street lamp on a shape shift trip, a Castenada forecast establishing rhythms that are pure dissonance maybe. Who get their kicks disrupting people from path and horizon, look, over there! In front of where they were headed. Radiation so powerful somehow move a person off kilter enuf to change direction. If only for the moment. Ending up who knows where? Confused and still confused, frustrated? Help, reality is in this fantasy please. Sometimes a Trickster is so convincing a whole life is shifted, changed forever. Some heavy trickstering going on there. (I forget, am I in lower case or upper?)
AM I A FOOL? I agreed to Jasun’s invitation to podcast, against my better judgement, knowing how I am. On my feet talking, per usual sounding sort of not so smart. Actually, listening, hearing myself as if I was listening to somebody else, I sound like an idiot to me. Affirming that I am no good articulating, responding spontaneous on my feet. Unless I am in charge, selecting, inventing material that fits my strengths. Which in great part exploits my weaknesses. Why would I want to do that? Vowing to be a comedian–don’t ask me–I had already discovered bumbling material seriously got laughs. I decided long ago I could do that, quite well, easy. That inherant birthright, apparently, so I claim, other words, is more my natural nature than a developed, home grown, environment thing. So that drawback becomes the platform off which i work providing endless grist for material. Of course, that acceptance of a weakness, focusing on it as a strength, will be up to no good. Far as overcoming a real ‘problem’, if not accelerate it. But that is a whole other story eh.
How I sound in verbal audio interview? Not the brightest bulb in the room. And in this instance my tone, voice is slushy and strident. As if, this man has not served his condition too well. Too confident considering the stupid way I sound. My view is that I need time to overcome spontaneous expression that has no edit. Except for the ‘edit’ already done in the head, time after time in instances regarding topic, mulled over incessantly in the head. Thus done, formulates the thought in the first place, but speaking, it comes out inarticulate and unfinished. Why? Speaking and writing are different process for one thing eh. I told Jasun but not suggested it, that like Paris Review famous authors, some insisted on written questions before the interview, and not only that but they would write out their answers, too, that I would be better doing that. But this of course is not podcast format.
In this case of Auticulture podcast, Jasun and me, somebody not knowing what the subject is, and me rambling on without bringing into focus what I am talking about, but entering into the conversation late or mid point and not brought back into clairty by an interviewer–in this case Jasun who is most adept at it–still might not know what is going on until finally the topic is made clear, at least clearer. As Steve Allen said to me when he was guest on The MISTER MORRISON Public Access Show, “Bill, what is IT?”
Consider as further explanation my excuse for sounding bad talking opposed to writing: A first thought, in the head, while original to my intent and firm conclusions about the matter, but without thinking thru as writing provides too often reveals my natural limitations. Writing gives me that room, to actually overcome ignorance. I say something, Lay it down. I see it. Now, what do I really want to say? I write it again, what am I saying? Edit that. Write over that, edit. Finally I reach satisfaction, almost due getting fed up wth it, exhaustion sometimes. I have done the best I can. I have with much effort manufactured mysef half-way intelligent sounding.
My smarts show up in flashes. There are ‘gifts’ I was given, a certain personal dna way of analyzing and perceiving and special about delivery, what-goes-around. And again this acceptance of my limitations, that could be a positive if I say so, applied to the former peculiar look at things gives the outcome a certain edge, if I many say so and I just did. thus perhaps gives it legs. Negatives but in a positive lite, using them as elements of an Act, that can work I thought.
Now, as a sort of exhibitionist , in terms of show business, doing me in front of an audience, with pretty much everything showing, developing a character for public display, first as a standup comedian, then extrapolating from that to shape a ‘performer to display on television primarily–that was the goal, Balloons were the avenue. Very visual obviously, unique. Props, I like props. Used a big thick 6 inch dictionary and a blackboard and chalk early on. And with balloons, why, aside sculptures, releases and launches, I would read them! Blow up a balloon and I will read your Static Kinetic Electro Dynamic Cosmic Vibrations. So I could do my methods, often tongue in cheek approach to comedy, say what was on my chest too, inside this masque that is The Balloonman. At anyrate, enuf excuses.
This Auticulture podcast of Jasun and me. Jake is just fine, as usual, of course. Me, I am really embarrased. No kidding. Even after my own understanding, expectations, that sure enuf I will be embarrassed upon hearing myself. Knowing that but still . . . hoping . . . that i would this time overcome myself. Didn’t happen. I don’t regret the experience, contrary, it was fun, but if it wasn’t for Jasun, his swell ‘cover graphics’ and my ongoing pattern, willingness to sound stupid for the sake of doing something at least, I would not want my ‘friends’ to hear me in this my natural condition. FOOL? I should say so.
1st time I think that a co-liminalist has commented on his own experiencing of listening to himself on this podcast. the fool desires to be hamlet in this case and so sells himself short, forgetting that hamlet also envies the fool.
Phffffft ! . . . you forgot lovable
“There’s a divinity that shapes our ends-Rough-hew them as we will.”~Bill Shakespeare
Aah. Marvelous. “Bill Shakespeare” always has the right thing to say. In this case, sums up Destiny and Will and what we can do about it most succinctly.
truly, it is a beautiful sentiment isn’t it, sublime really. a good thought for the times when i must stand in the shadow, the better to see the light kinda thought.
Reply in part to Fritz Fangly’s:
“Some vague late night impressions–This conversation highlights several complicated and peculiar aspects of the generation gap between Boomers and X. Jason, are you familiar with Douglas Rushkoff’s book Present Shock? He talks about what he calls “digiphrenia” and “fractolnoia.” Roughly, this has to do with an effect of the information age in which our ancient pattern recognition skills begin to connect dots and reveal hidden and ultimately impossible to know narratives. Of course these concepts weren’t so ubiquitous for generations pre-information revolution. For them things like Truth will never be as plastic in meaning as they are for us.”
There must be a real difference in ‘understandings’ between “Boomers and X” and now Millennials eh. Time, within in it as it passes thru cultures seemingly collecting, imposing its appearance of accumulated, picked up new things and ideas, swings. Swing to rock, hip hop, rap, fashions, algorithms, ooh, and the associate numbers that we sort of live by, while all the time happening, during the last generation’s worship of fad and current demographic trends, the similarity to what proceeded and what will follow, is quite the same. Some might reconcile that naturally new stuff far supercedes in merit and value the last fad. Oh? It’s all in the family.
The last truth in the current demographic accountability, truth to the order of the times that seems to demand that oldtimers, generation gap mothers and fathers, before or after the last generation gap and their truth of culture trends, is it all as aggregated components like music? Rhythms that seem irresistibly, constant and eternal. the infernal absolute mathematics of the cosmos say. thus intertwined, one system reliant on the other, one gravity equals all gravities, so that–let me finish the point here– so that extrapolated, the differences in understanding between generations, regardless introduction of new trends, usually to do with demographics of buying and selling, clothes, cuffs higher or lower, skirts, narrow lapels, wide lapels, loose pants, tight pants, new wave ideas, eh, all can relate to music? Everything noticable, past, now, future, is composed of the same facts and elements, only to be rearranged according to opinions and designs. That one generation to and from another generation, is by nature respectful of family associations, and that progress moves generally slowly, incrementlly, and renders lack of understanding one generation from another is miniscule when it comes to final outlook on family matters regarding the general attitude how the neighborhood should be run. And too, considering that within each generation there are numbers of folks who advance very little in any event of new information afforded them. I’ll say this, I may be too easy about this generation gap thing, saying that there is not the big differences often claimed. Perhaps, there is more disagreement about issues between generations than I suggest but, again, fundementally, is there? Taking into consideration family members getting together bottom to agree on what is best for family and community?
It builds and builds, one generation upon the other generation, but for the most part, the new arrangements are composed of the same available notes pretty much, composed of all the notes most likely there are to be played. Some perhaps undiscovered but played in the periphery of possibilities I’d bet. Whatever that means, I think of it as relative, that there is nothing new under the sun and that generation gaps are often manufactured things, with not that much real difference between generations as far as kids understanding who their parent are, where they come from, at the same time, recognizing that of course kids automatically rebel against their parents styles, but then I must admit, it is disturbing the power and force of the ‘media’ and Money and business influencing generations to be different in order to sell them stuff that proves them hip to their generation, opposing the fashion of their old fashion forebears.
But unchanging truth of working community culture bottom line, the blueprint off which we operate day to day directions within families should not be separated into demographic enclaves of self interest. Generational divides labeled as such by folks with agendas will always be in play. What is still likely to remain at core value is a very real honest to physics truth of existence. That indubitably is forever true of . . . universal procedures, what makes the ‘world’ go roun’.
Added, these incremental new faces of ‘current’ information. Information off information give us what? A new way of looking? These new ways thus change the whole picture of what really is? And that consequently oldsters, while maybe right about things generally speaking once, even wise, are turned wrongheaded, or maybe more to this point, don’t see things now that recent information, shifts in taste, have emerged with passing time, and that this new information, at last in deference to the formerly absolute manner of truth of the times, that the last generation, and before that the generation before that, who then or now conduct the truth of politics, economics, war games, new science, whatever, fashion, style, that that old issue near or far from current profile is still stringed implicitely to all parts of anything new transpiring. But of course.
I’m sorry, Bill–I didn’t mean to steer the conversation toward divisive demographic stuff. It was late. . . I don’t think you have anything to be embarrassed about–it was a great conversation. Actually my favorite part was your memory of the first day of school. I have a similar memory. I would’ve liked to have heard you follow further down that line. Anyway, great stuff, both of you.
Well, generation gap, it got me going, thinking, and blabbering and I am not disinclined by any means to all that. About topics, issues, concerns, often I don’t know how I bottom line feel, conclude about something until I talk about it, delve into it. write it out. Think about, let the ideas lead one to reveal the truth or untruth of another, conclude. This generation gap issue allowed me to pursue it. Go every-which-away with it. For a long time I have been bothered by the enormous focus on it. I’ve pretty much let it slip by without, essay, comment. Accepting it, sure, between kids and parents there is that gap created by each who knows more than the other.
I figured get into it, and you Fritz labeling it, induced me to action. That it, the gap, is over emphasized, more manufactured than actually existing as a real gap. but of course it, the gap, is real. Aside the exploitation of it, naming it that, by retailers; establishing demographics that a ‘gap’ creates, is terribly important to sales, inventing new or shaping old product to excite new comers within 2 to 4 year divisions. Shortened to that slim margin now. To those in the ‘in’ and those going out of it, once in the in, separated into fad for differentiation between folks to induce more, and more sales in order to . . . keep up.
Just due human nature, kids rebel against their parents in degree and style, intensity, importance put on it, visiousness, or not much thought about in terms of either the child or parent, more or less taking it, the youth/adult and differences in all stages of growing for granted and dealing with it easily. After all everybody was a kid once. Remembers or should not discount it, their kid time, as just a stage, a period. It is more than that, it is everybody growing up together the same way in that way. Meaning it is real as it was real, growing up, and thus to be accepted for what it is. Not a reason for dividing us up for sales though.
The family thus pretty ‘functional’ with little or no real conflict within the family over big ideas, morals, fashion pft, the way things were, are, and with a family spirit pretty much one, trust, balance operates a famiy well. And even so with family of divergent personalities, raised easily. The parents and the kids raising each other according the tenor, if not the craziness of their times, but trust in the family and love holds it firm. The ‘fashion’ of the times, new ideas that make former ideas obsolete, has nothing to do with family treating each other with respect, like family. The communty as a smooth and natural to nature operation. As if politics and religion don’t exist far as an ideology separating family, into camps. Each generation and the new wave extensions of the old into something often purposed just to sell for some entity’s advantage will not upset a family in balance, or cause ill treatment of each other because of some manufactured application made up to sell stuff put to the natural rebelling of youth. Using our human nature to divide us up to sell something to is most insidious to say the least. Ugly.
A politic and religion for that matter is personal, don’t let it ruin relationships, or proselytize itself and force friction. Economics determines fads and should be put into perspective and dealt with for what it is, mindful that it is supposed to be divisive, to make it urgent for family members, 2-4 years apart, to oppose even one another. in terms of ‘fashion’ and the supposed new ideas come with the climate of fashion. What was before, pft! Keep up with jonses and that the kids get what makes them peer. This is a nasty circumstance that comes from the manufactured generation gap to sell us and give us phony reason to go out and buy, buy, buy! It divides us up into buying groups. Not healthy at all. The soul suffers for it. But fits the purpose of our buy and sell foundation cornerstoning our corpocracy. So, Fritz, seems I might agree more than I intended at the outset with you. But surely that’s about enuf for that topic. For now.
Thanks both.
Just finished listening. Ill come back and read the discussion later. Really really enjoyed this meandering derive of conversation, your two voices jogging, and Turning, almost stumbling, but keeping going and never breaking stride. Fun. Thanks.
Fritz Fangly my reply: First day of school. I wanted to be sure and say something about that during?Jasun’s podcast because it remains with me to this day, so imporant but why? So vivid, that flash of brief images of that first kindergarten day. I don’t think it means much more that what it is, a first graduation day so to speak. released after home ‘learning’ and that altogether protection that is the home. But count on me anyway pursuing the images more.
Probably my hand was held eh, until my Mother left. Yep. Big deal, but as I say any more implications that what that was are not important. Crying in the sandbox. Who are these people? Do I need them at all? Kind of annoying. Them with their own fears and ways of interacting with other kids eh. Way different that what I am used to. This time we are all alone in the same first day of the kindergarten boat. Noone want to be a crybaby about it. And I was. I don’t remember anybody else crying. Heh. Not abandoned exactly; I am certain I was abolutely sure Mother was going to be there for me later. She must have made that quite clear. Whenever this ordeal was over she would be there. Did I know how long it would be? When ‘school’ ended. I must have known this was ‘school’, and likely was aware and to expect this in my future. It was what everybody does. I bet I knew domething about ‘that’. My older Sister went to school. So I suppose I was aware that I was to learn here. Something. What was that? Things, but I couldn’t even articulate that then, what things? So kindergarten was a brand new thing imposed, that is for sure. Shocking in a way. An eye opener eh, for the first time, a first time happening. That was to be a long term thing.I am just talking here, sort of discovering what it must have been about in ways I never thought about before.
Schooling, showing up for it, out of the home to go to school. Day after day, year after year. First day of school, kindergarten, more of a caretaker thing, eh, preperation for the serious schooling ahead. And crying in the sandbox is all I remember.
Kids are taught and early on how to get long and get ready in a group to be taught. Uniformity begins. Kids in a group, kids taught the same thing, material ordained by the current teaching System, directed from the culture’s teaching headquarters. Be good kids, sit still, teaching is going on, learn this. Learn what? What we teach you. Outside of the home where we have learned whatever and however we have been informed by our parents. Who for the most part, not recent immigrants, been taught by the same System. Expected to do with the learnings traditional things everybody else does, at their rate of brains, inherited manners and pace, position and luck and gifts, given lots of or not so much of, within the society. Interesting. Crying in the sandbox, only one time did I do that. I think anyway. So I picked up pretty fast how to fit in. that it is okay,I can do it, my Mother is at home and will pick me up. It is safe here away from home first time. So do what is expected. Not ‘that’ hard. Do this, what a kid is epected to do, by my parents and act accordingly, normal. A ‘grown up’ eh, ‘growing up’ with my neighborhood of growing up kids. Learning how to be and act and perform and function within what the tribe expects. Well, okay.
i was not disappointed to see fritz’ query about the first day of school, was hoping he’d share his as well.
to the extent it did get me thinking. took me aback cause my first day of school in 62, i was in gr.1. all i can remember are all the smells from that day and what i had on from head to toe. it was the first thing that came to mind. nothing bad or awful, just new and strange. very vivid,
Yes! Yes. This is it. Exactly. I have a strange memory I have to try to write about.
well then, i will look forward to reading it if you decide to share it . . . in all its wondrous odiferousness perhaps?!