The Liminalist # 81: Social Engineering in Miniature (reading from The Witch-Hunt Narrative, by Ross E. Cheit)


Jason discusses The Witch-Hunt Narrative: Politics, Psychology, and the Sexual Abuse of Children, by Ross E. Cheit, on the McMartin preschool case, the death of academic research, discrediting child witnesses and debunking psychological research, a mosh-pit of denial, complicity or ignorance, a foundational case in the witch-hunt narrative, Abbey Mann and Indictment, implicating Oliver Stone, Judy Johnson as “suspect personality,” the destabilizing nature of research, the original allegations at McMartin, parental reluctance to investigate, overstating the Satanic element, CII exaggerations, fantastic elements in the testimonies, an exponential disassociation from reality, a strategy for casting doubt, protecting the guilty, creating a smokescreen, social engineering in miniature, suppressing the medical evidence, an applied awareness of mimesis, the emergence of public awareness of child sexual abuse, a triggered society, assuming implausibility, organized deviance, the ignored tunnels, FBI documentation of tunnels, an inability to think in ambiguity, Levenda’s fallacy, morality plays left and right, mimesis, crowd control, social psychology, studying a sample of social engineering, a lever for mass control, fabricated behaviors, creating moral panic by faking moral panic, a psychiatric wall, a rising anger, perpetuating the exploitation, the cognitive problem of dual tragedies, a narrative without ambiguity, the irrelevance of adult denial versus the relevance of child testimony, abstract abhorrence and actual tolerance of child abuse, Woody Allen: national icon, a wall of denial, the pressure of seeing & the pressure of speaking, how surrender happens, the opening of surrender.

Songs:  “The Kommema and his Religion” and “Of the Lakes,” by SunWalker; “Technicolor dream,” by Cotton Club; “A Dance Under the Stars,” by D. Trevlon.

19 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 81: Social Engineering in Miniature (reading from The Witch-Hunt Narrative, by Ross E. Cheit)”

  1. Jasun,

    Are you familiar with the podcasts of Jan Irvin and Joe Atwill of Gnostic Media? I haven’t seen any references to them at your site but that may be due to my lack of diligence in exploring the archives here. Anyway, they deal with many of the same topics that you do. Here are a few of their podcast titles:

    Unspun 038: “Counterintellegence in the Alt-Media”

    Steve Outtrim Interview–“Silicon Valley’s Secret Weapon: The Shadow History of Burners Part 4: Occult Rituals of the Cult” [There might be a tie-in here to the ritual at CERN]

    CCN–Unspun 031–“Alfred Kinsey and the Peddling of Pedophilia”

    CCN–Unspun 030–“Steve McMurray–MKULTRA Australia”

    Bill Joslin Interview–“Nonviolent Communication, Pt. 2 “From the Fabians, thru MKULTRA, to Today.”–#230

    I guess you’re already familiar with these folks; the overlap of topics is obvious. I find that they provide context and background to your own fine podcasts.

    • I meant to reply to this & forgot. I have listened to a couple; Irvin was going to have me on his show but I think he lost interest when he found out how “undisciplined” (liminal) I am (and perhaps because my primary goal isn’t to EXPOSE THE EVIL-DOERS but self-examination?). I tried to contact Atwill to talk to him about Crowley, whom he has lately been referring to as A PEDOPHILE, but Atwill did not deign to respond. At this point I tend to lose interest in my supposed “peers.”

      I listened to some of the Outtrim shows; interesting but at the same time, tiring. Too much “information” (and speculation) without context; also too much diabolic laughter from Irvin. When did he become a gloater?

      • I do agree with you about “tiring,” and “too much information!” Irvin’s voice grates on my ears. My interest in their podcasts is that I can find more discussion about “social engineering,” “MKULTRA,” etc. and that helps me become more familiar with topics that I tend to view with skepticism. Also, I’m interested in their promotion of the Medieval Trivium of grammar, logic, and rhetoric that they claim is how the ruling classes are trained but now, zounds!, they are going to make that learning arsenal available to the masses so that the little guy can talk back. I’m touched by their earnestness. I’ve been familiar with the Trivium since high school and am clued in to its chief promoters, mostly forgotten now, Mortimer Adler, Robert Hutchins, Clifton Fadiman, St. Johns College (Annapolis and Santa Fe campuses), and the great war of books at the University of Chicago during the 30s(?) when Robert Hutchins was president.

        Anyway, I prefer the sound of your voice to Irvin’s and that initially attracted me to you podcasts.

  2. although i havent had time to listen to this, i can at least read the list of topics covered — and relate it to some strange material which i am digesting in the wake of the death of an old friend – i witnessed his life and what became of him after he joined an Indian cult — I don’t think Swami Shyam is the only perp, but one of a series of players in an orchestrated program that also improvised (using systems theory) over time as their experimental subjects grew older and responded to their childhood programming in various ways — i think it’s also a family story that happened to MANY families in the post-war period — families with military and other kinds of special connections — the kids were abused and manipulated in many differents ways from early childhood, e.g. by Masonic parents, siblings, schools. psychiatrists, the State, controlled media and much of this was (for lack of another term) ‘MKULTRA’ operating under the radar of supposedly ordinary life in North America — i think along the way, the social engineers running this program came up with solutions for dealing with traumatized kids who threatened to overthrow the master plan (think of the Beatles and rock music)– adding more layers of mind control — including setting up and funding cults, programs, special schools, new forms of electronic entrainment e.g. through music, radio stations, tv, new careers in the arts, new lifestyles, drugs, diagnoses etc etc — all that noise that we are subjected to — all of it working to deepen and extend our collective amnesia and confusion —

  3. Bonjour Monsier Horsley,

    You asked for feedback regarding your music selections so, my 2¢ is that it would be fine if you repeated some of the songs. I think that your choices are excellent but I don’t always get a chance to note who/what it is was while listening. In general, with music I find that I need to hear it 2-3 times before a song will latch onto my subconscious and really make me take note of the details.

    Otherwise, please just keep up the great work!

      • I really should make an effort to investigate and download some musical material from the artists you use in your podcasts Jasun, much of it is to my liking.

        I’d be happy to hear you recycle what you’ve used so far which would aid in this process.

        Please keep going with your podcasts if you can. I value them enormously, and though I haven’t yet donated am planning to next weekend.


        • Thanks; I have found some more songs & bought them on Bandcamp, which seems an acceptable way to proceed/gather more material, these are not corp bands but they are charging a bit for their songs; I’m OK with that. They are good bands. I will re-use some of my favorite of earlier songs also.

  4. I’ve enjoyed pretty much all of the music you’ve played so far; wouldn’t mind hearing any of those tunes again.

    Always like to hear Big Blood.

    I’m surprised, though, that you are having trouble finding suitable songs with all the music available on the various open source music sites out there. Is it that it is overwhelming to sift through because there is so much?

      • Have you looked around for free music?

        As far as the podcast goes, I’ll tell you what I get out of it that I don’t get from other podcasts:
        -Questions instead of answers (by far my favorite part )
        -What seems to be honest explorations instead of restrained/watered down/ shallow discussions. The topics can be shocking & uncomfortable but I don’t get the feeling that Jasun is “shock jock”
        -There seems to be an impulse behind the podcast that is beyond entertainment, story telling, or just plain chit-chat (none of which I’m opposed to, just seems like those areas are saturated). The Liminalist resonates differently from everything else, making it my favorite podcast.
        -And, of course, the music. Now that I think of it, in my early days of radio listening, Coast To Coast AM would often recycle bumper music. I was always happy to hear “Year Of The Cat” & “Some Velvet Morning” come back around. I can’t see anything wrong with recycling songs while still adding new ones if you happen upon some (or however you want to do it).
        To the person who mentioned Brian Jonestown Massacre’s “Seer”- it’s the song that made me stop the podcast & go dig through all the emails I had sent myself of Liminalist-discovered songs & make a podcast inspired compilation 🙂

  5. There’s a lot at stake here.

    I just watched that abhorrent movie, Indictment. I was struck (nauseated) by how obviously propagandistic it was and decided to look further into the matter. If you haven’t already come across it, here’s a link to a well-researched deconstruction of the case: It’s interesting to note that the author actually corresponded with Oliver Stone and, albeit unsuccessfully, tried to convince him not to release the film.

    It’s the strangest manipulation of the scapegoat mechanism I’ve yet seen, whereby the victim (in this case, Satan) is pitied and the accusers (those crazy Christians) are demonic. I like how you mentioned it being like a magic trick, because that’s how it feels—to have information spun so. The CERN thing is yet another example. Apparently, we are far too modern to coexist with ritualists. How absurd, how silly. It’s oxymoronic to call this a witch-hunt, now. It’s the witches that are hiding the prey, and we forget even our hunger, our thirst to know.

    It is distressing, Jasun. It is aggravating and it is beyond fucked. But it is what it is and I admire you for continuing to see the wall for what it really is.

  6. I listened to the whole thing yesterday. Yes, the music was exceptional. I enjoyed the really nit – picky going over the text Jaysun was reading, with comments; just really digesting it, going slow and discovering the principles involved in the “trick” / psy-op. [Yes, I’m going ahead and calling it that.]

    [ I don’t believe all knowledge comes from “direct experience” so I don’t have that kind of rule around information that I will reject or accept –

    Some of the means for gaining knowledge:

    Of course ” experience” !

    but also, “books” “authorities” “inference” – (I was taught this list by my spiritual tradition, strangely enough)]

    Often enough, a person who is an “I was there-er” still doesn’t know what really happened! I have found. Just because “you were there” in Paris; doesn’t mean you really know the city.

    But the fact that a person “was here” makes the person believe they have a privileged position for “what really happened.”

    I am under no such delusion, for although I attended the McMartin school and Peggy Ann Buckey was in my pre -school class [images somewhere to prove it]; it is not that fact alone which makes me feel there was real child abuse going on there, even though I have no memory of sex abuse.

    I gained knowledge of the case by reading articles over time – logic. And do not remember any sexual improprieties against myself, though they can be inferred; And also my own memories of things which happened there and grandmother’s behavior and words factor in.

    Also, when you have that many witnesses who are not backing down after these years? Nah. No way. Also, from what I understand the tunnels were found.

    Anyway, I’ve been trying to puzzle: “How did they do it?” in a personal way, not as it the law case – which I feel Jasun elucidates very well.

    I’m trying to mine my memory. And think it might have been during nap time – if I had been taken out of there. (longer story here of my memories – which I written about many times and no one takes much notice except for one claim of an ex-[alleged]friend. “Oh you went to McMartin? Case closed; you are a spook”)

    Also what factors-in for me as a piece of the puzzle is the aerospace company down the road. Perhaps we had a snack before nap time? That’s all that’s come to me so far.

    Right down the street, up the hill –

    TRW the aerospace company of the time, has now changed it’s name.

    I think Jasun bends over backwards to be fair – and really that is a pre-mature reaction to imagined critics; a reaction formation?

    I feel Jasun really doesn’t like criticism so he covers every corner – which is fine. It’s somewhat endearing, but can get tedious – if one doesn’t have loads of time to get into the mood of his voice – which as everyone mentions is often very pleasant and seductive. I am very detail orientated and that is why I probably many times enjoy his unraveling of things.

    (I have learned recently to speed up podcasts and videos because listening to a voice always takes longer than reading.)

    I can feel Jasun’s wrenching agony over this issue. I find it puzzling. I think the angst is real but is maybe about something else, than the “McMartin” issue per se?

    I see no value in experiencing pain and distress, unless it’s spontaneous.. attached to something real.

    I was just taught by my “Guru” – “there is no value in suffering.” So I don’t want it as a chronic case – though it hits me sometimes when worn down, grieving [over a real loss]; But mostly when I am run – down and tired – not getting enough sleep, not eating right or enough.. When I’m physically vulnerable, that’s when the evil moods come.

    (I had a very time understanding people were still crying over 9/11 15 years later – when to me, it unsettles and makes angry, since I know it was a Propaganda event, but crying 15 years later? Wow)

    Isn’t it just amplifying suffering to re-live and re-live it?

    That notion suffering had no purpose was hard for me to swallow when I was suffering intensely and probably only makes sense now, when I have , for the most part, dropped suffering – as much as an embodied soul is able? And not through denial either. I actually dig at things which are unsettling. It freaks out people around me, often, but not me.

    I think it is an incredible synchronicity that I attended that frickn’ school – remember the “grandmother” McMartin – who was an awful lady to the children /cold, but all smiles to the parents; and *did wear the little pedo – bear button!

    I really was happy to be taken out one day, down to the beach, with my teenaged sister..and sit on the beach. Even at that age I like to cut – class! (my memory does go back to age three when I started that school)

    These lines popped out at me.

    “The behavior that you are seeing in others, projecting onto others, imagining in others, you yourself will end up imitating it”

    And these works by which I just suggest what I heard:

    ” felt betrayed by [Jake? couldn’t make out the name exactly] (minute 38) “The reason it’s not implausible to me is that it leaves out, it’s assuming, that if such were the case .”. “implausibility, people that deviant couldn’t possibly be that well organized? ”

    “Dissmissing scenarios out of hand because they are subjectively too fantastic.”

    Something along these lines ^^^ The gist was Jasun was angry since evidence in this case was dismissed out of hand after being framed as “fantastic” and “implausible”

    I can’t speak for other people, nor for Jayson, but my own feeling on this is : “This is how the entire society operates. It’s how the “Wall” keeps up.. Or maybe it’s just a “house of cards?”

    I’ve started to laugh rather than cry at how stupid and transparent it is.

    Just recently after reading about Kinsey I felt there might have been more going on; how many 3 year olds masturbate to orgasm?

    (I doubt if I can edit this, but “here goes nothing” – since I’m going to post this and really didn’t have the time to edit. Must go to work, am late and just want to get this done)

  7. Regarding the podcast’s music: personally, I find Jasun’s musical selections to be an important part of the show. They help give it a unique feel, and provide some sort of breathing room or energy boost to the conversations, punctuating them in a way, and adding variety, character, and atmosphere. It’s common for The Liminalist to introduce me to a great song I’ve never heard before, which I eagerly look up in the show notes—“Seer” by Brian Jonestown Massacre comes to mind, as well as all the great songs by Origami Conspiracy, etc. So I’d be disappointed if the music disappeared, or if the same old songs started recycling—-personally, I’d prefer slightly more “corporate” songs to appear, as long as they’re still somewhat under-represented and fit the mood of the show….

    Also, regarding the doubts about the show continuing—-I would hate to see it end, it’s one of my very favorite podcasts. A unique mood & perspective, approaching fascinating topics in a refreshing manner….It would be a shame to no longer hear Jasun’s voice discussing these topics. It makes me realize that I haven’t been commenting as much as I could (I often listen to them at work and then forget to get online & chime in by the time I’m home in the evening), nor getting around to donating monetarily, although Jasun deserves it, and I’m always telling myself I mean to…

    Here’s hoping that the show continues, and that we all do a better job of showing Jasun our appreciation & support.

  8. Jasun, I think you should keep reusing the same songs. The songs you have picked are really good.

    I really enjoy your podcasts and hope you keep doing them. I love the subject matter, your voice, your delivery, music, everything. You have a lot of insights and wisdom to your podcasts, thank you so much for sharing them with us.

    Your descriptions of surrendering, dropping in from one unpleasant emotion to another reminds me of self inquiry and awakening. I used to follow Eli Jackson Bear who taught self inquiry and letting the ego fall away to reveal the true self underneath. It’s not always pleasant to bear the transition to awakening. It’s okay. I think I’m still on the journey myself. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Eli used the Enneagram to reveal the knot of ego.

    Your podcasts help me face my futility as well. I feel that the world needs your work in this, to counteract the action-oriented positive-addicted memes in this culture and world for that matter.

    • Thanks for saying so, db. At the risk of splitting hairs it’s not the world I am hoping to help via these podcasts but those individuals who are trying to find their way into and through it without becoming of it.


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