Liminalist 53.5: A Tribe without a Scapegoat (with Samuel Corwin)


Part two of conversation with Samuel Corwin, on Girard’s mimesis & Jesus’ ultimate innocence, martyrs as copycats, Christ as a way of being, imitating God, experience without understanding, a lifetime’s defenses, Strieber and the Sisters of Mercy, Catholicism, the traumatic secret, MKULTRA, & rejecting the body, addressing attachments to pleasure, the idea of purity, the Pleroma, the vulnerability of children, psychic and physical abuse, punishment as purification, the internal accuser, high-level abuse, Christianity as Satanism, the relief of reading Girard, the planetary scapegoat mechanism, internalizing understanding, the laws of the psyche, locating Christ through the body, the transmission and the holy names, the messianic complex, union between reader and writer, becoming the totality, communitas, a tribe without a scapegoat, a collective of souls, an isolationist stance, leaving the world, the need to communicate, being received, nowhere for Satan to hide, the messiness of emotions, art in the present, self-expression + communication = art, reaching people, flogging the Strieber horse, firing the arrow, new X-Files, paranoia as a form of awareness, Seen & Not Seen, media-generated fantasies, UFO phenomena and cultural conditioning, Jeffrey Kripal and the imaginal interpretation, capitalism, power & control, scripting myths, spin-off religions, UFO cults, recognizing the internal mechanism, an evil generation that looks for signs, waiting for the next thing, recognizing ancestry, shackled to the past, a cataclysm in the past, Samuel’s murky Masonic history, the best-kept secrets, venturing into the minefield of family history.

Songs: “El Mariachi” & “Monkey Said” by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Rednecks with White Faces,” by Cahas; “Earth,” by Two Prong.

13 thoughts on “Liminalist 53.5: A Tribe without a Scapegoat (with Samuel Corwin)”

  1. A concrete example of how Catholicism joined forces with MKULTRA: In Quebec Catholic orphanages appear to have participated directly in the MKULTRA program beginning in 1953 when thousands of ‘Duplessis orphans’ — children born out of wedlock handed over to the nuns by unwed mothers — were relabeled as “psychiatric patients” and transferred to mental hospitals where they were used in drug experiments, tortured, sexually abused lobotomized, etc. Catholic priests and nuns trafficked many of these children across the Canada-US border, e.g. to New York State where some were sold for adoption, and others ended up in military experiments. The Grey Nuns of Montreal were sued in the 1990s by surviving orphans who had been abused in their care.

    • That’s disturbing, Ann. I heard about this recently (at least we are able to hear about it). It’s hard to imagine how deep this goes, or how far back; we didn’t even mention the crusades.

      Levenda talks about episcopi vagantes, or wandering bishops, where anyone can become consecrated outside of the officialdom of the Church, yet still have . This has spawned numerous bizarre sects such as the Moorish Orthodox Church, to which the outspoken pederast Hakim Bey belongs. David Ferrie of JFK fame is another wanderer.

      “Unless you become as little children, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.” I wonder, Jasun, what you’d say to this. Individuation as pedomorphia. Christ the child. Not a reversion so much as a reclaiming, though. They have no scapegoats, save for adults, but how can you blame them? I’m living with my nephew (8 months) and some of the best conversations I have now are pure gibberish. And maybe all this child abuse, as well as engineering a generation of [fill in the blanks], is also just inherited and passed on, like a mimetic virus. And the real threat is more to this state of being that is just as much embodied as it is vulnerable. Is not our entire adult lives spent sorting out the mess that was made in our “growing up”? Not saying I’m gonna start wearing diapers..

      • I got distracted, thinking how well the horrific saga of the Duplessis orphans illustrated the early part your discussion. Then it was bedtime here and I had to stop listening. I loved the way Jasun defined the different between Christian and satanic values: it’s exactly that refusal to participate in the deluded violence of the world. Another way to view it is ‘non-attachment’ to fixed outcomes, which are almost inevitably disappointing and laced with irony. So that’s where the child come into it.

        • I think it’s an important question, what is the Christ kernal? It’s becoming easy to dissect the satanic mechanisms embedded within society; it seems to be the driving force of capitalism/ corporatism, etc. It’s a fine balance, because any resistance against this archetype seems to feed its power over us so that we end up using the very same means (violence) to fight that force we oppose. The world is not so polarizing. I was drawn to the gospel of Thomas because it seemed to have an integrative function. It’s all too convenient the good/evil dichotomy in mainstream religions is co-opted and used for militaristic purposes. Radical Islam is our modern scapegoat, or, even worse, something as vague as the idea of terror itself, and it’s hard to imagine it going away because the only solution seems to be to bomb them into the ground. And I can’t help but wonder that a meta-narrative to this war against ISIS is a war against the mother.

  2. Samuel Corwin , Corwin Corvin , Crow , Kronos ?? Or does it mean shoe maker ? .. Seems to me that theres a paradox between a Freemason and a Klansman . I’ve never seen an alien , but when i was working in a cattle mustering camp in the northern territory i got separated from all men and beasts with a broken girth . As i walked through the bush it seemed to shimmer and come alive , and i felt like an alien walking across a 250 billion year old landscape , the air so hot and thick like liquid and the shattering silence ringing in my ears . Red necks with white faces indeed !
    Listening to the podcast i thought of Hannibal Lecter explaining to Clarisse Starling how the very mimetic and Oedipal Buffalo Bill ( who liked to skin and wear his victims ) located people ..
    “He covets , how does one begin to covet ?, one covets what one sees ” .. A reference to the evil eye , watching t.v, the power of the image , ashamed people averting their eyes ?
    I get what Jasun said about being able to understand formerly indecipherable texts . My jungian analyst friend says that most people devote enormous will and energy to keeping certain things in themselves completely hidden or at least held at bay so they dont overwhelm the organism . Once released by awareness, these energies are then available for other functions , such as increaesed vitality and intellect .
    I think on the wheel of consciousness and the mandala self , for want of a better description , we all go through periods of more or less ” embodiment” and awareness , that we are slipping in and out of waking and dreaming all the time , dependent perhaps on a variety of internal and external factors, weather , health , stress , environment , the shennanigans of other chimps etc . I doubt that theres a day when we become ” fully enlightened ” and stay that way .
    I get Samuels suspicion of much of what passes for tribe and communitas these days , which often seems to be mimetically disfigured into a sort of incipient new age corporate fascism with plenty of scapegoats on hand .
    I dont think you need feel bad about overdoing the Streiber thing, Jasun , you seem quite open about the fact that he has become some sort of reflection of your own internal drive toward extreme disembodiment , and by your own admission you are in the final stages of integrating him .

    • Well, cows have their relationship to the sacred, as India taught me, so maybe the cattle mustered you. Cowin.
      Corwin is my grandfather’s first name (my middle) and I never actually met him—he died when my mother was young. There’s something to carrying a family name, though. I just recently went through a family chest of his belongings and found his navy jacket (which, incidentally, in one pocket contained a document signing off on classified info!). Crown is another wordplay I like.

      The klan is essentially modeled on masonry (as are most fraternal orgs like Rotary, Lions, Elks, etc.) and many notable masons have ties, Albert Pike especially. We still have the masonic sword in the familly. My family hails from the deep south: Alabama, Mississippi and Texas. My other great-grandfather was a southern baptist preacher, tellingly. No members live there now, however, so Jasun makes a good point, that time is running out to do the ancestral uprooting.

      It does seem the case that the ego has a vested interested in building layer after layer of armor. This podcast was like a sigh of relief for me, being able to open up about a lot of things I normally would’ve relegated to the occult. A family’s secrets are like its scapegoat in the Girardian sense; they bind the family. Doing this kind of genetic plumbing really feels like a break in the chain of DNA.

      I really agree, that we’ll never become fully enlightened and stay that way; or if we do, we’ll disintegrate and no one will ever know about it. It’s always goal-orientation and the maze of face names we’re sold that lead us away from the simplicity of what has been/ is/ always will be us. It’s hard because it’s easy, and we’ve spent a lifetime believing it’s hard.

      And maybe, Jasun, the horse needs to be flogged back to life.

  3. I really agree, that we’ll never become fully enlightened and stay that way; or if we do, we’ll disintegrate and no one will ever know about it.

    I don’t agree, tho I recognize the need to let go of transcendental goals. But if a cup is in the process of being steadily emptied, eventually it will be entirely empty. Recognizing a spectrum of wholeness or authenticity presupposes an end point. Everything does.

  4. I guess you’re right; I misspoke. If one is to become “fully” enlightened, then it follows that in itself is an end. I think we hit on it, that we’d both “experienced” it but only as a fleeting thing, as with psychedelics—the dreaded come down.

    Of course, being unenlightened, I project this as the way it is.

  5. Yes , i think total ” enlightenment ” , or i suppose full integration of the unconscious and conscious is an unlikely prospect while you are a hirsute in a hair suit . I think if it happened you’d end up a blithering mess huddled in the corner whimpering for mommy .
    As Lovecraft said ” we live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity , and it was not meant that we should voyage far ”
    Sounds like a good MK Ultra mind control slogan !


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