The Liminalist # 17: This Property is Condemned (with Louis Proud)


Part one of two-part conversation with the taciturn Louis Proud, on Prisoner of Infinity, Dark Intrusions and Rodney Ascher, Whitley Strieber and writing as a way to control the unconscious, Robert Louis Stephenson’s Brownies, a Faustian bargain with the entities of the unconscious, the million dollar question about imaginal beings, autonomous fragments of the psyche, the psychology of the guardian, sleep paralysis in teenage years, the stress factor, Strieber and new parenthood as a trigger for psychic phenomena, childhood abuse programs, Solving the Communion Enigma, trauma as evolutionary engineering, the legitimization of trauma, Strieber’s post-Communion downward curve, a psychic Frankenstein, the Institute of Noetic Sciences, the alien abduction narrative, and space travel, Edgar Mitchell and, the Overview Effect, guiding “abductees” to adopt the correct narrative, NASA and Scenario Planning, the message of 2001: a Space Odyssey, engineering an affinity for the stars and psi potential via alien abduction narratives, the bleak reality of space travel, UFO and plasmic energy, the intelligence of ball lightning, the mysteries of the human body vs. the need for novelty, chasing projections into the imaginal realms, Louis’ writing trajectory, Strange Electromagnetic Dimensions, maintaining the UFO narrative, the futility of trying to do research within the alternate entertainment complex, The Secret Influence of the Moon, disappointing audience cults, pressure from radio hosts to be “on message,” being groomed as a spokesperson, the alternate perceptions shadow community, the different kinds of writers, exposing the APC to itself.

Part two of this conversation, “The Land of the Devils

Louis Proud’s website.

Songs: “El Mariachi”  by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Superspectrum,” by Philo Gristle; “One Shot Charlie,” by Cory Gray; “Surf Clang,” by French Radio Constellation (with voice of Whitley Strieber & Art Bell, added)

20 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 17: This Property is Condemned (with Louis Proud)”

  1. i very much enjoyed this episode – i listened once, then immediately once more again! I’ve not heard of Mr. Proud before and this was a nice intro to him and his work. Refreshing change from last two epis, here the ideas and curiosity take a front seat and ego wrangling is left in the dust 😉

    I liked your sum-up version of one aspect of entity encounters – the idea that fragments of people’s beings are blinking off and showing up externally. (Sorry, my brain is on fritz so these will not be my most cogent remarks ever.) I have been interested in the related idea of tulpas for a number of years. I find that the ‘ufo research community’ has a pretty shallow view of how tulpas are created – ‘people think about stuff a lot, boom – a tulpa!”

    well if that was how it worked, we’d see plenty of excel spreadsheets of sales figures, not small greys! You may be interested in Dion Fortunes quite candid and detailed account of creating an astral wolf (in Psychic Self Defense). Several elements need to be present – a monumental head of emotional steam; the capability of fine-honed and long-lasting mental/emotional concentration; a pre-existing astral construct in which to pour said steam (for example DF thinks of the wolf horror of the north, Fenris, which determines the shape and qualities of her tulpa – gods and monsters are perfect for this purpose); and the creatrix needs to be able to extrude astral stuff in order to ‘enliven’ the tulpa (DF feels a ‘curious pulling sensation’ on her solar plexus at the moment the wolf breaks free).

    I reckon analyzing both the psychological and archetypal matter as well as the magickal/energetic circumstances of a well-documented contact event would yield very interesting results. (Strieber, anyone?)

    However, like you i have been floating these ideas out there for years to deafening stillness 😉

    I will say that all that renovating seems to agree with you! Mages, witches, ane sorcerers have a rep for being excellent craftspeoples, lord knows it is grounding as well as a relief to deal with the stolid. Thank you and Mr. Proud for a very interesting talk!

    • In Part 2 of the convo we focus on this subject as happens; I didn’t announce it because Louis is a bit wary of going public like this so I have to run it by him first. Fingers crossed he will OK it.

      • ooh exciting! Feel free to let him know there is rampant listener interest (haha tho i can keep my ectoplasm to myself 😉

  2. enjoyable talk. it got me thinking that the whole ramp up of ufo/alien/space travel obsession was an unconscious reaction to the impact of the nuclear bomb. so we have both the scapegoat and an escape hatch.

    • nice turn of phrase; it’s also an externalization/world enactment of the splitting of the psyche and the release/harnessing of psychic energy.

      • the alien other. I wrote this earlier today:

        It’s no accident that the UFO/alien mythos ramped up in the immediate aftermath of the absolute terror of detonation of the nuclear bomb. Once we as a species had developed the capability to effectively wipe ourselves off the face of the earth we needed to develop an imaginary off-world other to project our fears onto. Attendant with this impulse was the obsession with space travel and colonizing other worlds. Instinctively we understood that this world was now simply too dangerous to stick around and we needed an escape hatch as well as a scapegoat.

        • So then the scapegoat unifies the human community and thus comes to represent its salvation (the ET points us outward to space)

          • …which does nothing to address the real issue of the bomb. When Kubrick followed up Dr. Strangelove with 2001 he was merely reflecting this collective delusional response.

  3. To me, Christopher Nolan’s “Interstellar”, is pretty much the ham-fisted epitome of the UFO agenda described in the conversation…

    That is, it deals with escaping/avoiding our human problems on Earth, probing the depths of space in order to find a clean-slate, while in the process achieving a kind of “scientistic-apotheosis” as man travels beyond the life-giving boundaries of his home star…
    …2001: A Space Remake

    Pertaining to the million dollar question…
    Do such entities have an independent existence outside of the experiencer’s consciousness (perhaps as autonomous fragments of the collective unconscious), or are they solely the products of the experiencer’s imagination?

    In my view, I also tend to see this as not being an either/or issue- I think perhaps the answer is yes to both, and I base this on some personal experience…

    Nearly a decade ago (in my early twenties) I experienced sleep paralysis or “SP” hundreds of times (roughly 150 to 200 if I had to take a guess) over a period of 3 or 4 years. And of these, I had awareness and conscious memory of an entity (or entities) in the room probably 10% of times. During this initial period, my encounters were not “extra-terrestrial” in nature, rather the entities took on the form of ghostly, human-like apparitions,- similar to what SP researchers call the “old-hag.” It’s important for me to mention that at that time I had never heard of or researched SP. I was a scientific materialist -leaning toward atheism- and thought this was exclusively a physiological/psychological issue, perhaps brought about by heavy psychedelic use in my late teens (which may have been partially correct).

    The majority of my SP “contacts” occurred at the same location. I don’t intend for this to be some boring recollection of my experiences, but I do need to provide at least some context to make my point. At the time, my job was to care for 3 mentally challenged men, all living in the same house. I worked the midnight shift from 11pm to 7am and basically just slept on the couch and periodically checked on them throughout the night. Although I came to love these men and they me, and they were for the most part docile, those who have worked with severely mentally challenged or MR individuals will know that at times they can get extremely upset and difficult to console. During day shifts the job often entailed neutralizing tantrums with all sorts of mental and emotional turmoil to boot. I say this because the house (the environment in which I sometimes slept) was “charged” with very chaotic energy. You could feel it when you first walked through the door, even if everyone was calm and happy at the time, as the environment itself had had a long history of sadness, anger, frustration, even abuse (in the past) and all manner of chaotic happenings, and this translated into the general “feel” of the property. It was a common thing among my co-workers for instance, to discuss various paranormal occurrences they had experienced while working in the house. I’m reminded of abandoned mental hospitals and their propensity for supposedly being haunted, as this was very much similar, only this was just an average home. My point is that not only was I “on-guard” when sleeping due to the unpredictability of the 3 men, but the environment itself was conducive to negativity, fear and occasional high-strangeness, even in waking hours.

    So…if such entities are indeed autonomous, and reside in the fourth density, at the negative polar extreme of “the field”, or the collective unconscious, or so-called “astral realm”, and such a reality is non-temporal to a certain extent, might my work environment with its troubled, tumultuous history provide the energetic conditions necessary to produce, facilitate or attract energies of a similar low resonance? And with that said, might my imagination have provided the context necessary in order to construct a somewhat comprehendible narrative with which to interpret such energetic forms? In this way, such entities would have an independent reality but would also interface with the environment and the imagination of those they commune with, so that they are both real and imaginary simultaneously.

    After I moved on from my caregiver job, the SP ceased as well…

    It wasn’t until years later while studying Ufology (including some of Strieber’s work) that the SP returned, this time taking on the E. T. persona (surprise, surprise) and always seeming to happen in times of heightened stress. These later bouts also happened at a location prone to paranormal occurrences. Never did such contacts present themselves as abduction scenarios or any other hugely complex narratives; rather, I was merely able to visually identify the creatures (pretty much as the classic gray aliens, but sometimes with bright-yellow technological headgear). I also got the feeling that they were not good, and that they seemed to be responsible for my paralysis. In addition, I sensed that some kind of energetic vampirism was taking place. This happened with much less frequency than before (only a handful of times).

    In my view, the fact that the entities took on different appearances, corresponding to my changing world-view, definitely points to the fact that the imagination plays a big role in these experiences. Still, environment also seems to factor into the equation-as does emotional instability.

    Recently I’ve had a couple more SP contacts. Curiously, they have not been visual in nature but aural, and the dialogue I am able to hear does seem to correspond to my current perspective, although upon waking I’ve had trouble recalling all of what was said. Such experiences have coincided with my somewhat extensive explorations into occultism-and on the darker end of the spectrum-demonology, black magic, occult imperialism etc. My SP experiences have correspondingly assumed a similar esoteric bent. I have no desire to practice ritual magic but very much desire to get to the bottom of how the occult sciences factor into the global governance agenda and the historic and current proliferation of empire in general. I realize that much of the research material out there is strongly rooted in what Jasun refers to as “second matrix”, but keeping that in mind, I nonetheless feel that at least some of this information is worthy of my attention, so long as I am careful not to get sucked into the manipulated vortex and am able to apply such knowledge towards the betterment of myself and those around me.

    In my view, a very interesting explanation for at least some of these experiences can be found by studying occult pneumatology and the philosophy of Paracelsus. Such entities (perhaps even the almond eyed E.T.s included) very well may be what are known as “elementals” or nature spirits. That is, they are beings not composed of corporeal flesh, but of a subtle, etheric essence that exists behind the materiality of each of the four elements (water, air, fire, and earth). Such elementals are not normally visible to man in his current disconnected and unimaginative condition, except in certain phases of sleep, or to the supposed “spiritually adept”. I by no means am an adept, not even close, but I have had encounters-positive, negative, and neutral-with the invisible inhabitants of nature, at first through the use of entheogens and now naturally via states of deep meditation and genuine humility in a natural setting. As for demoniacal intelligences, I’m not quite sure if demons and other astral parasites are exclusively elementals or not. Perhaps they are a more organized conglomerate of forces. I do however know that elementals were known as “daemons” to the Greeks, but that later, a particular weaponized religion deemed all such things as belonging to that of the devil.

    My larger point is, at least part of the “Alien PSYOP” may involve the use of a phenomenon already known to naturally exist (elementals) and the adapting of that phenomenon, through the works of Strieber and others, in order to influence the modern imagination in such a way as to rebrand these elementals- which historically have manifested as gnomes, salamanders, undines, sylphs, fairies etc.- giving them a modern makeover with an “E.T.esque”, scientific twist. I realize that this does not explain the whole range of the entire phenomenon, but it is something intriguing that we should at least consider.

    • That’s an extensive response, thanks; you might want to jump in at the forum if you want more feedback; re: your last point, i mostly agree, and yet am also coming to question whether these elementals & inorganics aren’t somehow connected to the human psyche, or even fragments of it… (Louis & I get into this in the 2nd part of our convo.) The gods were once psychic impulses before the ego delegated them to the “heavens” and “hell” of sub/superconscious?

      • Hi Jarrod and Jasun! Both of you may be interested in the blog Monsters and Magic by stormeye69. I’ll give the link to a blog post in which storm, a long time practicing occultist, outlines his theory of grays as etheric beings of a parasitic nature. His blog is a wealth of material on the relation between the paranormal and the occult, the vast bulk of it unavailable elsewhere.

        I suspect that beings which paranormalists have grouped together may actually a diverse group of entities. For example, i suspect that many ‘bedroom visitations’, especially those of a sexual nature, are simply human beings unconsciously working out their dream-stuff on the astral. I wouldn’t consider this a ‘fragment’ of a human being, necessarily – i would lean towards the term ‘aspect’.

        Here is a post of storm’s which is a ‘small primer’ on types of spirits which totals eight types. It’s a wild wild world out there 😉

        Anyways, take a look at stormeye’s work – it’s a treasure trove.

      • So what you mean is that they are disavowed fragments of our true holistic potential, aspects of our psyche that the ego has so fully refused to acknowledge that they now have an autonomous existence outside of ourselves. They are the abandoned children of our shattered consciousness, and because each point or aspect of our psyche contains all the information of the whole, like a hologram, these fragmentations or entities, originating from our consciousness, were able to animate and think and behave on their own…an autonomous existence, the origin of which is our psyche itself, getting the “juice” they need to perpetuate by vampirizing that which gave them life to begin with? Definitely very intriguing. Feels as though there is something to it as well.

        • hi jarrod! well, for me these ideas take a while to mull over and try to understand, glad you find it intriguing! It is interesting to have these ideas, then can see how they shed light on experiences (or not).

          I know many people are quite focussed on trauma as at the root of these ‘entities’. No doubt that is part of it. But people who have teh most powerful, reliable manifestations tend to be those who have put a lot of time and attention towards becoming ‘whole’. I personally have had the most striking synchronicities (as in manifesting physical objects which hang around) pop up from states of wholeness.

          Personally i think that the trauma aspect is a pointer towards the key elements needed for manifestation, but also a red herring. FWIW 😉

          • Ahhh…That response makes me want to ask you something…Have you ever considered the idea that many flesh and blood human beings may indeed be tulpas? I have contemplated this myself for awhile now and was surprised to here Jasun (as Aeolus Kephas) on Stormy Weather present this same idea in his “Sorcerer’s Revelation”, his last episode (I am brand new to Jasun’s work but have been listening to a lot of his old and new stuff lately). A similar idea was brought to my attention through Gnosticism, and a tractate of the Nag Hammadi Library called the Tripartition of Mankind. I don’t know if you are familiar with it but basically it suggests that there are three types of humans, spiritual humans from source who are here to witness and will return immediately to source upon death, humans with a soul who may determine their spiritual destiny, and then a type called the “Soma bodied man” who basically are humans without a soul and are the crystallized thought forms of the demiurge (the unbalanced, entropic creator god responsible for materiality). This is a bit different from Jasun’s model…if I understood him correctly he suggested it was the life-force of ensouled humans who’s consciousness was harvested and then skillfully redirected by “Masonic Sorcerers” in order to conjure tulpas who, it turns out, make up the majority of the human population on Earth. Although somewhat different, I thought the similarities in the two ideas were very interesting. It’s definitely a radical theory to say the least!

          • I was just thinking, I guess technically in this model the physical manifestation of every human, regardless of type is a tulpa, its the multidimensionality of the three types that is the difference…anyway, just curious to hear what you think/feel : )

  4. hi jarrod! well, i have a stricter definition of tulpa than many others do. For me, ilook for the elements listed in my comment above: “… a monumental head of emotional steam; the capability of fine-honed and long-lasting mental/emotional concentration; a pre-existing astral construct in which to pour said steam (for example DF thinks of the wolf horror of the north, Fenris, which determines the shape and qualities of her tulpa – gods and monsters are perfect for this purpose); and the creatrix needs to be able to extrude astral stuff in order to ‘enliven’ the tulpa (DF feels a ‘curious pulling sensation’ on her solar plexus at the moment the wolf breaks free).”

    So i suspect tulpa are not composing the vast bulk of humans here. No doubt we have a variety of beings here on the planet masquerading or simply hiding out as humans. Your ideas also bring to mind the many ghost sightings which are taken for regular humans until further info shows that was not the case (person in question was already dead, they vanished, etc.)

    I’m more inclined to lean towards many ‘spooky’ encounters (incubus, ghosts, even some ‘aliens’, etc.) coming down to people out on the astral, whether consciously or not, as an OBE or simply as the natural process which occurs during dreaming. Dreaming is necessary to life, people die from sleep/dream deprivation. I take the occult viewpoint on dreaming that the astral body naturally takes some time to not focus on such a tight connection on the physical body and goes to attend to matters on the subtler planes. I don’t see this as a ‘fragmentation’ or ‘shattering’ or as necessarily due to trauma – from my point of view, it is just the nature of us as mutidimensional beings.

    Don’t know if this addresses your question – it’s a big one!!!

    • I suppose I should give you my view of what a tulpa is then, so we can see if we are at least on the same page, or maybe the same chapter, or in different books altogether. To me a tulpa is a thought form with a certain amount of energetic consistency behind it- so much consistency that it can then be willed into manifestation by altering its vibratory density to such a degree that it can then be experienced in consensus reality. In my view, this does not require “wholeness” per se, but rather energetic consistency. For instance, one way to look at the visitors that accompany sleep paralysis, is that they are not necessarily tulpas par excellence (maybe just quasi-tulpas) in that they are thought forms that are granted a certain level of ethereal manifestation due to a lower aspect of our personality that we have consistently refused to address, this energetic consistency of disavowal allows this energy to exist as only seemingly separate from us and it is our imagination that gives features to these energetic forms during our encounter with this energetic form. In this way, perhaps such entities may not be dense enough to be experienced within the framework of consensus reality, but they exist in a density only perceivable by a certain wavelength of our consciousness, a wavelength normally relegated to a certain phase of consciousness between wakefulness and sleep, but that is nonetheless always there regardless of whether we are consciously perceiving it or not. To me, the material universe is a tulpa in itself, in that it is the product of the mind of a creator being that had the right amount of imaginative consistency and will behind it to hold the material universe into crystallized manifestation. Therefore everything that is physically existent within this crystallization, including the body of every human being, is a part of this larger tulpa. The flaw in materiality is that it was created with the blueprint for creation, or the sacred masculine principle of divine mind, but lacked “heart” or the sacred feminine to compliment it and allow it eternal existence or syntropy. That is why matter is subject to entropy and decay and is ultimately finite, it was not birthed from the sacred union of divine feminine and masculine energies. So, our material bodies are tulpas of a lower creator being. Some humans are “all-tulpa” and no soul, some are matter dwelling spirits, and some are ensouled and contain the breath of the divine, but all of physicality itself is a universal tulpa.


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