The Liminalist # 192.5: The Human Side of Enlightenment (with Martin Jolly)

Second part of conversation with Martin Jolly on Dave Oshana, Enlightenment Real & Imagined.

Staring at the Sun (0 – 32 mins): Allowing for ambiguity, separating the good from the bad, where Dave Oshana comes in, an orientation towards the good, seeking an experience outside time, on the edge of asinine, spiritual language, energetic sense of being observed, looking at the sun, a particular kind of corroboration, putting aside doubts, being misled about the existence, a consistent element throughout Jasun’s output, an opportunity for the soul to exist, many disguises, being a sensation, a tough act, Dave’s hygiene, the impact of attention, conditions for spontaneity.

The Statue of Enlightenment (32 – 60 mins): Impressions of Dave, the human side of enlightenment, assumptions of invulnerability, a conception of a statue, taken out of the human domain, ceasing to be seen as a person, the terminator super-ego, John de Ruiter, the rejection of the personal, the illusion of the impersonal, hiding trauma, veering off intimacy, the association between the eternal and the ideal, where transcendence comes from, the insidious ideals, true spontaneity, a measure of integrity, a parody of a guru.

Brightest Star (60 mins to end): Aversion to becoming a commodity, into the just-possible, selling books, an unfulfilled potential, a high barrier of entry, waiting for the signs, the capacity to notice, the problem with having (or being) a center of attention, the brightest star in the sky, getting to know the configuration, the danger of hierarchy, leaving the Dave project, the possibility of feeling differently, saying too much, cooking a meal for someone, sharing a delight.

Dave’s site

Songs: “Knob Wobbler,” by Gib Strange; “No Place to Go” by Eilen Jewell; “Buried Treasure” by Grant-Lee Phillips; “These Words Are Yours,” by Hazelwood Motel

22 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 192.5: The Human Side of Enlightenment (with Martin Jolly)”

  1. FYI: There have been a couple of comments from first-time commenters complaining about “cult,” “brainwashed followers,” “deification,” etc. I have held these comments in moderation (all new commenters are held up automatically) for a number of reasons. I will address these “concerns” in a future blogpost and/or later on in the comments section.

    • ಠ‿ಠ
      feel free to email me some of the really angry ones ?

      I thought it was a fine chat. I enjoy Martin episodes.. even if you guys did dance around the juicy bits of the train story 😉

    • We are members of the Concept-Free Cult! All will fall before us with the weight of our non-arguments! We ruthlessly control our members simply through the feeling inside their bodies!

      • The main purpose of doing these podcasts was to secure enough funding through Paypal donations to complete construction of the East Wing and private airstrip at our multi million dollar ‘Retreat Complex’, in remote Finland. Of course the uninitiated will not realise that ‘Retreat Complex’ is just a euphemism for brainwashing centre! But by then it will be too late!

        • I do not know if the Oshana thing is a cult, I simply do not know much about it. But your attitude, Martin, is kind of cultish. I have seen it with myself and others. Outrageous claims, disguised as humor, just to signal everything is really ok. I hope everything is really ok.

          • Haha Thomas, no need to worry. In Britain this is what we refer to as piss taking. I appreciate that your heart is in the right place though.

          • Oshana actively discourages cultish behaviour, Thomas, and requires transgressors to scourge themselves with a penitenti flail. You do know that churches, since their inception, have been proud to qualify and push their state-sanctioned cult power the max? I can understand the corrupting seduction to power that all priests face. I wouldn’t want any part of it, both in public nor in private. How about you?

  2. I think the anonymous sock puppet troll is an agent provocateur trying to create the illusion of a riotous mob so that he can step in as ‘Pontius Pilate By Proxy’ and sentence Jasun, in absentia, for crucifixion on Good Friday. The essential question is whether the inspired wordsmith (not the splenetic troll), in his current lamb-like state, will take the bait and fulfil all parts of the messianic script, in which case the troll will have won and this blog will be no more. Quick work for 30 pieces of silver and a hardened heart.

  3. Dave, after some comments the reply button is missing. So I just get on. Poor transgressors. The thing with the Church is that it is not only one cult but many. On the other hand it is not a cult but a culture. The Church is simply to big for a cult. There are many awfull Priests but I also met some sane ones.

      • Do not underestimate the laity. Millons of Catholics believe that this Pope is not really Catholic, but a politican, a revolutionary and a heretic. I am one of them. But we differentiate between the office and the person that occupies it. Dark times. But anyway, what we are doing here? Do you want to save my soul? I have no money for that.

        • You are operating in a different paradigm, I am not trying save your soul. If anything there has been an attempt to understand what you are doing on these threads especially since you don’t seem to have posted on earlier, non-enlightenment threads in recent months. However, your aims have never been made explicit. Possibly, you don’t know. The only thing I can think of is a passive and ineffectual attempt at pointing to your beliefs instead of yourself. I wish you would be more ballsy and stop pussy-footing around.

  4. Hey Jasun, I came across your podcast through your last appearance on skeptiko. Not much of a commentor here (or there), but I would like you to know that appreciate your honesty and intellect. I look forward to hearing and learning from your experiences, wherever they lead. Very surprised your getting so much hate. Keep on posting my man.

  5. Hmm. Okay. I am not sure if I am really operating in a different paradigm. I was not active in previous non-enlightement threads simply because I was not following them. In the recent months I was reading, amongst other things, Jasuns two latest books. I found them kind of enlightening. Pun intended or not, I don´t know. And now I find myself in this enlightement thread, a tweet from Jasun and klic klac klu here am I, maybe by “auspicious coincidence” as one of my former teachers liked to call it. A teacher, who was terribly flawed, who hided his insecure manhood behind the veil of enlightement. Just reading again my application for Vajradhatu Seminary 1994. Yeah, “indestructible enlightement”, oh man was I longing for that. Alone the name “Seminary”, an intended blasphemy, to make with a three month orgy of drink, drunk, fuc* and practice fun about the age long tradition of Catholic seminaries. Anyway, I was intense in this enlightement circus. If you offer something by this name, but it is different, why not find another name. And what kind practise you recommend? I know Zen practicians, that have sat thousands of hours more than the historic Buddha, and are still full of shit. “Pray, repent, forgive and hope for Grace” is a practise. And I am a very poor praying man. But it is my attempt to come in contact with something that is beyond human flaws. But maybe I am just projecting. What do you think?

    • That’s more like it! It’s much better now that you have come out from the shadows and stopped muttering Roman Catholic incantations (they are off-topic, irrelevant and obscure here).

      Your passive-aggressive, undeclared scabrous beef with the concept of Enlightenment, and the teaching of it, can now get some air.

      You are correct to suggest dropping the term “Enlightenment”, especially when debauched and delinquent fellows, honorifically titled as lamas and gurus, have given it such a bad name. It’s enough to make one go running headlong into the loving embrace of all Catholic priests. No blame, no shame. It’s entirely understandable how such misfortunes happen. This is not to say that you’re not deriving certain benefits from your mass-sieve activities. However, as a contrast, would you also suggest that Roman Catholicism change its name and form, because of a shocking, iniquitous past (and present) that may be far worse than the intense 3 month drunken orgy you were enjoined to follow within Tibetan Buddhism’s most popular export?
      To answer your question: I think that you think that you are a “very poor praying man”. Indeed, you have probably been thinking all kinds of nonsense about yourself and have been looking to be saved from precisely that. And still are.

      I don’t prescribe practices for Enlightenment, I share my state of being. I also share some self-care methods that have profound health and well-being benefits, develop naturalness and peace of mind, but which alone and in themselves carry no guarantee of Enlightenment, though I would say they would bring one much closer. My advice is: get really natural. But can you understand what I mean by such a necessarily pithy statement? Would all the philosophising in the world help you get to where you want to? No. You have to see it, feel it and be the natural state – and that, Thomas, is not gonna happen in a blog comments section. “Many are called, few are chosen.”

      • “Indeed, you have probably been thinking all kinds of nonsense about yourself and have been looking to be saved from precisely that. And still are.”
        Indeed. And after sitting so many years zennilike on a cushion thinking “thinking”, it is kind of depressing. Of course, being in the natural state of mind is also the “goal” of Zen, Maha Ati, Dzogchen and so on.

    • It’s a curious fact that my recent output has proven compatible with a Christian ethic and sensibility – tho only up to a point. It has been part of my trajectory of repentance; I only hope I don’t have to repent of it.

      For the record, I may believe in “demons,” but I don’t believe in resisting them. (see latest blogpost)

      & even if the gospel is the good book, it is still a book.

      there’s something about belief, as distinct from faith: it’s usually a mistake. See the Hoffer quote in POI: “in order to be effective a doctrine must not be understood, but has to be believed in. We can be absolutely certain only about things we do not understand.”

      and: “When you believe in things that you don’t understand, then you suffer.” Stevie Wonder

      • The distinction between belief and faith is difficult, at least in german. Belief is more like conviction (Überzeugung – and if you are überzeugt from something you have to überzeugen others). I read the gospel now in english.
        “I struggle with some demons, they were middle class and tame.” Leonard Cohen
        And Jasun, sorry for my tweet about the demons in your vicinity. Your “fanmail” seems really rather strange and suspicious. Take care. The empire is watching you. >;->
        And Dave, thanks for the Akira Rabelais’ Spellewauerynsherde tip.

  6. Interesting choice of George la Tour for this podcast illustration.He is such a underated/little known painter yet in my opinion way more interesting and skilled than say Carvagio or Rembrandt who he is often compared to.His works have a hypnotic quality to them as well as a mysterious stillness.The use of light and darkness being of equal importance in his visual depictions of transmitted concepts makes me wonder if there is an unconscious metaphor in it’s usage here, illumination I think being an obvious one though.The Pentinent Magdalene is a favorite work of mine by him.
    A musical work that I feel is an equal audio equivalent to his paintings is Akira Rabelais’
    I quite enjoy the aesthetic experience of meditating on his paintings while listening to this music.
    Unrepentant geeking out of the sublime here,but why not in a world that continues to find new forms of vulgarity.

    • That was Mr. Jolly’s choice, or rather, he sent me a few GlT’s & I picked that one, because of the contrast between the figures.

      BTW, I hope I am not encroaching on Roger Hargreaves’ copyright here. Is there a Mr. Jolly?

  7. Well that was lively, enlightening and somewhat bewildering at the same time. Still, I enjoyed it as much as I enjoy a good rough housing.
    Delightful, thanks everyone.


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