The Liminalist # 196: Naturally Liminal (with Dave Oshana)

Part two of return conversation with Dave Oshana, on surfing the wave of life.

Part One: A Room without Shadows (0 – 34 mins mins)

Dissembling, the false identity’s hold, pattern interruption, pain and drama management, asking to be blasted, attention-seeking mechanisms, capitulating to addiction, mistaken salvation, seeking a better dream, a mental idea of awakening, the displeasure of body awakening, awakening vs. enlightenment, when consciousness comes back to the body, a dream body, a spectrum of somnambulism, pain after enlightenment, when dreams recede, the matrix-mind, running commentary visible & invisible, being outside of the body, enlightened seeing, a room without shadows, a light inside, the neurons in the brain, compensatory communication, reducing the noise, the wave of life, how we know when the Sun is out.

Part Two: The Path of Fire (34 mins – 59 mins)

If enlightenment went away, let’s try this anyway, the river, a specific approach, a spiritual teacher, a sharable life change, conveying enlightenment, a self-contained feeling, practicing hygiene, the question of maintenance, a certain trajectory, the path of fire, a force of nature, how much you can handle, putting oneself in the line of fire, Christians vs. anarchists, being cooked, two football hooligans, camaraderie on the battlefield, mutual challenges, Jasun & Dave’s different audiences.

Part Three: Where Communion Happens (59 mins to 1 hr 35 mins)

What people want, parallels with John de Ruiter, aligning with the Sun, conformed by the light, trying to get close to the father surrogate, Dave & John, being a proxy, Oshana-flavored ice cream, a Valhalla of infamy, new ways of communicating, trial, error, & consent, allowing for discovery, marching clones, room for experimentation, ego vs. life force, the poster boy for reckless autonomy, critical voices, the need for engagement, the art of conversation, venting on social media, where communion happens, doing away with fans, co-opted words, Christian trolls, being open to everyone, talking to evangelicals, the disillusioned, seeking collaborators, naturally liminal, for Christian listeners, simpatico with Jesus, a new New Testament, a punk Jesus, clerical errors, all the way back to Jerusalem, who was Peter, Jordan Peterson on the fence.

Part Four: Jiving About Jesus (1 hr 35 mins – end)

Who is Jesus to you, the Jesus legacy, the Merovingians, the need to deliver, the question of resurrection, the Jesus vibe, the archetype & the man, the Christian audience, how to interpret the Bible, unnecessary literalizing, leading people through distortions, bypassing belief, what can be discerned, tribalism & religion, the Procrustean trap, having to believe to be saved, pledging allegiance to a guru, group dynamics/social control, slave labor ideologies, toxic culture, the weak bladder principle, an Easter event, another free event, movers & shakers, an Oshana thrift store appearance.

Dave’s site.

Songs: “Knob Wobbler,” by Gib Strange; “Russian Beach Heycaluca” & “Leaving the Home Tribe” by Party People in the Can; “Whiskey Boots of Snake” by The UpsideDown; “O My God My Dick’s On Fire” by Paul Wild; “These Words” by Hazelwood Motel.


29 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 196: Naturally Liminal (with Dave Oshana)”

  1. I have had some doubts about Dave lately but listening to this interaction made me think again. He seems to be clear and genuine in a way that many people aren’t. At least of those who dabble around spiritual stuff. It’s actually nice and refreshing in comparison! Thanks guys!

  2. & that’s desirable? & different from nihilism how?

    this is starting to sound like an Advaita pissing match.

    I recall when I was researching JdR & asking questions considered impertinent; I was told, “You are wasting your time. There is no John there.”

  3. “Any abstraction that cannot be pointed to creates a duality in perception: real and unreal.”

    Dave Oshana.

    I realize this cuts both ways. “Dave” – an entity that can be named & thus identified could be called an abstraction. I would prefer to call it a necessary simplification.

    The notion that “there is no Dave,” when I can clearly see someone I know as Dave, is, to my mind-body, the greater abstraction, currently at least. It may also be unnecessary simplification.

    • It might not be an abstraction for Martin, who has repeatedly avowed to not finding a “Dave”. Quite something for someone on the British mainland. It’s much easier where I am.

      • It could do with unpacking, IMO, otherwise it inevitably risks being sucked into a conceptual black hole of spiritual tropes that are familiar to the point of contempt, for me at any rate.

        • Yes, it runs all kinds of risks, such as attracting “fans” of oblivion.

          Monsieur Jolly, runs the risk on being taken for tongue in cheek by playing on a meme.

          The Advaitniks, like the Shakers, would all have met their Maker, by now, if they were true to their dogma.

          The visible, risible element have, ironically, divided into ‘duelists’, supposedly along a tradition-knowledge vs. modern-experience dichotomy, though the boundaries are fuzzy, since their thinking is based on artful cognitive dissonance and verbal sleight-of-hand.

          Avaita is a one ball wonder, like a French philosopher whom everyone claims is misunderstood by everyone else except their own self. It’s an “Emperor has No Clothes” fad, an enforced union member ship, to which every “spiritual teacher” feels compelled to pay lip service or be sent to Coventry (which would be bliss, if it weren’t so concrete).

          I don’t claim to understand Advaita. I suspect that its Western variant comes, in part, from dirty old men in raincoats (as has much Western ‘spirituality’) who spend more time pontificating over magazines on Soho store shelves than communing with real nature.

          Whilst your audience may have brushed with Advaita/”Non-Dualism” in the marketplace, I doubt that any are robotic advocates – unlike my FB “friends”, one more reason to avoid FB.

  4. My favourite Jasun / Dave podcast thus far and that includes the first one which convinced me to attend the free Transmission Session (I attended one more since).

    I have always avoided gurus but I simply love that ‘our’ Dave (a non-guru guru) is from Lewisham (just an educated guess). The more I listen the more endearing Dave’s accent gets (not that it bears any weight on the persuasiveness or validity of his arguments). Had I met him down the pub, he would have had my complete attention speaking as wisely as he does. But, I have different criteria for people I meet in person to people who dish out wisdom in public forums. Had Dave not been a guest on Auticulture, I would not have given him the light of day let alone attend a Zoom Enlightenment transmission. How can a Saaaf London lad know anyfink about enlightenment and not only dat but also try to persuade me to fall for the yarn that he’s enlightened?!

    Jasun, because of your critical and discerning analysis of subjects which have captivated my attention over the years (and my dear friend’s recommendation) I had the initial necessary faith to listen to the first Oshana podcast. However, since listening to the first two-part interview, Dave has had my complete attention. So, I am now loyal to two brands Auti-Cola and DaveO Sprite!

    I can’t quite formulate the insights I’ve had because I haven’t quite understood them, so perhaps not insights but rather sneak previews, but the barrier between spiritual and physical seems to be waning in my mind or as far as my understanding of them go. I’ve had such ideas/experiences before, that ‘light’ permeates all matter and that the spirit and matter are one, as in wholesome, complete, of a single source, and that the mind in its attempts to classify, differentiate, name, creates categories/barriers, therefore creating spiritual vs physical, the dualist conundrum. It makes sense sometimes, that there is a massive almost irreconcilable split (good vs evil, etc) but at the same time it also feels unreasonable, it simply doesn’t make logical sense and goes against my personal experience. However, even when I think that everything is one because it feels and reasons that everything originates from a single source, it still leaves me none the wiser as I personally feel separate and cut off most of the time.

    While at risk of being completely incoherent I would like to add to the recent psilocybin discussion (it is also directly related to this podcast) and the aforementioned sense of being disconnected. I have been a fan of and have used hallucinogenic substances for over two decades. I learnt to use them respectfully rather than just for fun (although that can be argued). I am convinced that I have benefited greatly from those experiences. But over the years the more people I met who advocated them the more suspicious I become, mainly because they were so different from what I imagined enlightened individuals to be (the CIA and other State security forces involvement aside). Ultimately, it was more than just what I observed in others that made me question the validity of plant-based experiences, I also started questioning my dependence on hallucinogens for insight, namely because I only really feel connected when consuming. Ultimately, Charles Upton’s arguments started making sense. Primarily the idea that those experiences whether counterfeit or genuine confuse the individual and prevent from being able to discern the Real from a plant/chemical reaction. The confusion also arises because one thinks or believes that he/she cannot have insight without them, and more dangerously because it splits the person’s experience into two, waking state of consciousness versus ‘expanded’. So the waking state becomes the enemy, the prison, while the high becomes your friend, teacher, because it is exactly then that you’re in the moment, connected, overflowing with love, etc.

    This leads me to Dave’s vision of seeing light inside of him (as he described the experience), Upton’s argument and my own experience. I also saw The Light but on Ayahuasca. I watched it happen as it all unfolded and it left a monumental impact on my everyday. But! I could never place where it happened. What exactly did happen? What did it mean? Etc, etc, etc. Ultimately, the experience occurred somewhere, I was disembodied, my mind’s eye is the only witness.

    I might be rambling but I wanted to share something sincere as I feel like I’m benefiting from your exchanges and I have nothing to offer in return. Also, I have written and then deleted my comments far too many times.

    Sooo, this whole business of being in the body eh… What’s that all about?! It’s still not quite making enough sense. I only seem to be able to intuit that it is important. We need our primary tool to function in its maximum capacity. However, I can’t quite understand what it means or how it relates to increased, better, true understanding.

    • Thanks Cedomir. Rambling is a freedom-loving pastime supporting healthy connections with nature and others.

      Our minds are filled with learned sensations. Conversely, our bodies are filled with abandoned thoughts. A greater awareness of the body will facilitate new ways of moving, and thereby thinking, and detox psychosomatic affect.

    • An impressive screed which makes me wonder about all the lost & abandoned ones that never made it to our screens.

      Glad someone else found this conversation as rich & spicy as I did, listening back & at the time.

      I recommend you stay off the soda pop tho. 😉

  5. Cheers for the response lads.

    Dave, I almost get it, almost. I just need to figure out how to be aware of it without judgement, or better said, disdain.

    Jasun, thanks for the support. I’ll try to engage more and voyeur less.

  6. ‘I’ do and my judgement is always present and skewed. I am the desdain/judgement, I get in the way of doing a decent job. When not, it’s fleeting.

    This paragraph is more important than my (un)posts.

    It’s a fucking impasse between some kind of awareness and the filter/mesh made up of shite.

  7. Or could it be the body’s memory (referring to yiur first comment) of pure fear from a variety of experiences, a part of growing up and being an adult, unprocessed, brushed under the carpet, creating the mental ID or filter as a valve, escape, a safe space which in turn interferes with perception and ability to act clearly.


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