The Liminalist # 195: Crossing the Threshold (with Dave Oshana)

Part One: Identifying the Audience (0 – 25 mins)

Theory of audience mind, introducing Dave to auticulture, a collection of individuals, responding to feedback, telegraphed needs as interferences, in thrall of a nightmare, differing aims, honing in on listeners, in disguise as a spiritual teacher, a Trojan Horse & monkey wrench, punk or rock & roll, Christians choosing denominations, filtering out spiritual seekers, doing a DeNiro, Tuttle in Brazil, punk as social revolt, paranoid listeners, the value of seeing the dark side, seeing past the hoodwink.

Part Two: The Babel Effect (25 – 55 mins)

Skepticism about spiritual teachers, no political solution, skeptics & cynics, troll attack, refusing to look at the evidence, resistance to enlightenment, the religious meaning of enlightenment, the pinnacle of evolution, the Hindu personalists, the impersonal expression of God, many flavors of Buddhism, Zen anarchist communes, Buddha as spiritual superhero, claims of celibacy, guru-fixers, Christian enlightenment, Bible stories, impolite conversations, the inclusive religious, what’s going on in a person, trauma-friendly ideologies & crucial fictions, the Babel effect, ideologues ignoring the body, driven into obsession, manifestations of inner pain, getting past language, fake currency, paper money in place of gold, words blocking transmission, an enlightenment tickle stick, wanking off to words.

Part Three: Locating the Light/Handling the Heart (55 mins – 1 hr 34 mins)

Enlightenment vs. awakening, bliss dialogues, linguistic mine fields, knowing everything vs. not needing to know, happiness over knowledge, laundering enlightenment, right-left-brain-hemi-sync, illumination, locating the light, the commodification of truth concepts, Saul the bounty hunter, Paul’s opportunism & the origins of Christianity, Paul diverging from Jesus, reality checking with others, feedback givers, a potential symbiosis, seeking collaborators, taking risks, Jasun’s changing output, a different emphasis, checking out Dave, coming out of the closet, a truth-test, the difference between collaborators and followers, Mr. Jolly’s perspective, a noisy room, sharing the heart, developing trust, a constant feedback cycle, involved in a mystery, an enlivening perspective, the enlightenment transmission, a gathering of trainspotters.

Part Four: Parallel Streams (1 hr 34 mins – end).

Parallel streams, making something visible, synchronicities, striking unexplained overlaps, the bigger picture, different levels of illumination, different angles of perception, a broad roof for the autistic spectrum, rules of connection, a changing policy at Auticulture, caring intolerance, keeping a garden, learning by imitation, anti-gurus by proxy, levels of trust, Jasun not-getting it, rapid results & big changes, why Jasun stuck with Dave, whittling down misconceptions, rubbing off barbs, seeking truthfulness, people who come for the experience, collecting for enlightenment, the fraudulence of techniques & methods, crossing the threshold, making an intervention, always an intermission,bringing participants together, a single tributary, joining the dance, each person’s transmission, Vulcan chess on three different levels, communion in church, obstructing Dave’s trajectory, giving mixed messages, listening to the person’s body, a paper-thin veneer, stickability, when the earth erupts.

Dave’s site.

Songs: “Knob Wobbler,” by Gib Strange; “This Life Gives Force,” by Richard Youngs; “Deep diving, new age crap III,” by Party People in the Can; “Erased” by Hazelwood Motel.

26 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 195: Crossing the Threshold (with Dave Oshana)”

  1. The thing that struck me when you (Jasun) brought up what Dave had once said (and, over time, echoed) was, “I am in disguise as a spiritual teacher,” was the profound truth in what I then thought… we are all in disguise and only when the disguise is fully removed are we able to “see” our “original face” (a metaphor). So Dave’s statement is an additional data point in favor of the argument that Dave is consciously enlightened – that he is and that he knows it. The statement is also suggestive/reflective of a true humility.

    As I listen to this discussion, it is more understandable as to why Jasun’s affinity for Dave Oshana.

  2. Thanks for sharing your perception, Samuel. I am starting to feel that I am a strange fish. Rather like the presentation of the St. Peter’s Fish that I saw being served up as a local specialty along the shores the Sea of Galilee by the local open air restaurants. The fish in fact simply a tilapia, much loved it seems by diasporic Chinese. Nothing weird, strange, esoteric or divine. Just another natural fish in a dying sea.

  3. I think a longer video of your even one of your gatherings would be more convincing of an honest and open intention, Dave. I know what I’m getting with say, Joel Olsteen, or Sadhguru. With you, there’s an aura of ‘pay before you play? ‘ Or, you have to know someone to get in, or you have to pass a screening to hear your message…I guess, if what you have to share is so important, why are you reluctant to share it openly?

  4. Once you’ve recognized bliss in the body – how can you trust it? Even the uncoiling of the kundulini- and the pure bliss of deep meditative states are really only temporary reprieves from reality. While I will agree that developing the skill to access these states is an advantage, it’s really not a lasting experience. This is similar to the body itself, which will eventually be unable to breathe and sit upright enough to meditate.

  5. @JD

    Rather than telling me what you don’t won’t, how about starting by telling me what you do want? It’s really a waste of time to get caught in irrelevancies. Do you have that much time?

    • I want to see a video of one of your complete speaking events. I want to see your complete message—is that irrelevant?

      Is the temporary nature of this reality irrelevant? How have you convinced yourself otherwise?

      Yes, I have plenty of time.

      • @JD

        > I want to see a video of one of your complete speaking events. I want to see your complete message—is that irrelevant?

        Ironic. Your message is still unclear. Is that why you need my “message”?

        What I share is not encapsulated in a single lecture, but in an experience of existence.

        But since you want messaging.

        Summed in 3 words: I share Enlightenment.

        A good all-round 10 minute message:

        Here is a 37 video playlist, substantially excerpts from two live public events:

        This month, there was a free online live event, 4 hours 22 minutes talk/interaction. The event video was recently replayed.

        > Is the temporary nature of this reality irrelevant? How have you convinced yourself otherwise?

        Truly, yes, unless you are a fruit seller.

  6. Thank you Jasun and Dave for this conversation, it gives me a better idea of who is the person Dave and more sense of the ongoing interaction between you: the “live reality of it” as it were.

    I do not know if I am interested in enlightenment per se. I might phrase my searching as looking for healing or purpose. I know I feel uncomfortable in the world. I would like to discover what I could best do and be besides being an alert and aware witness.

    Jasun, your books, blog and podcasts have in the past shown me ways to think about the discomfort of being in the world. To me, this interaction with Dave and your recent posts seem to show a path you are taking to becoming more comfortable in the world. I don’t know if that is a part of your intention but I thank you for showing a possibility and a possible path.

    • @Cara

      As a collective, we move toward greater comfort or discomfort. By “comfort”, I mean naturalness and by “discomfort”, being away from ones nature. When we move toward our nature, we support others and vice-versa. In helping others, it seems unavoidable that we absorb their suffering, transmuting it and offering a way to a better place. In that is inter-relatedness and independence.

  7. Hello thanks for the conversation.
    The theme of fans i heard somewhere that fans comes from the devotes of god king wo men getting very hot under the attention of the masses and having attendents that literaly fanning them to cool them down as they practice in Krishna temples etc …so i prefer to be a listener, future colaborator or friend…. My obsession and question around enlightenment self dev is what about sex and sexuality as it seems to be the dynamo and fuel of life itself so when dave was talking about celabate spiritual authorities pure whos penisis dont stand on end ! or do thay, so dave if i could be so impolite as to ask what part does sexuality and sex have in your personnal enlightenment …. oh by the way i was born on 19th of june 1969 and on my birthday 2000 i was in amazing shamanic ayahuasca ceromony for what its worth ……thanks Jasun thanks Dave

    • Adam, you have a fascinating name and story, joining the ranks of 19th of Juners. Is your obsession sexual? If so, you might need your own “fans”. Coincidentally, I was considering how unnoticed sexual body language appears in social intercourse and wondering whether it be by nature, nurture or manipulation. I am not sure how to comprehensively answer your question until I know more about what you are looking for. Otherwise, I would simply recount my experiences and teachings – none of which may be relevant for you.

  8. Thanks for the reply Dave,
    My name is Adam the jollygreen is from a gardening biz i used to run in UK ” The jolly green gardeners ” it went well with an image of the green man, customers would come to us on the strength of the name sometimes, glad to join the ranks of 19th of juners.
    Well my obsession or focus seems to have always been about how to harness that (Sexual) life force in the dark fazes of my life and in the light seems to be a core issue for me, i certainly have been dedicated to the search after truth, knowledge, experience, overstanding, inner light bulbs etc. what am i looking for……more light curiosity , as jasun knows i have limited internet windows maybe private e mail or chat could save others from the irevelevant,,,,thanks again Dave. keep up the good work Jasun

  9. In case it’s of any value; because there seems to be some curiosity about the audience; personally not here for enlightenment, or because I’ve bought into the more conspiracy inclined subject material… I like… love… the music you play, wish you’d make a mixtape. Also, enjoying the unforgiving light you shine into the recesses of peoples psyches; including your own. I sort of check back in sometimes to see whether (because of the light shining) you’ll work your way around to figuring out whether there is, or isn’t really anything there – in all the stuff you push hard to put out. More recently, reading a comment you made “Organic existence is predicated on predation.” (, being vegan,I got a bit triggered and wonder if you have / will get around to shining a light on that a bit (full disclosure, I’m way behind on all your content, it’s completely possible my reaction is rooted in ignorance / is premature): where I’m at putting energy into that seems a more legitimate thing to do to achieve a bit of growth than, pushing for enlightenment, or trying to sound the alarm about culture as Archon… Anywhoo, like I said, in case it’s of any value, use it, don’t use it.

      • Apologies for lashing out, of course you have thought about it. At present I get more worked up about what we do to planet and everything else in it than I do with what we do to each other.

      • I guess it would be silly to carry on with this, if I could just point out, by the same token if you abandon some sort of scale, I mean if killing is necessary to eat, therefor killing a carrot is the same as killing a cow, therefor killing both is fine, you could expand on that to include other things, like procreation, as in we need to have sex to procreate, therefor consensual sex is the same as rape, therefor both types of sex are the same.


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