The Liminalist # 210: (Obeying the Laws Of Physics, with Panu Lyytinen)

Conversation with Panu Lyytinen on Dave Oshana, Carlos Castaneda, house renovations, the limits of language, mapping Hell, & the Christian Mafia.

Part One: Gonzo Sorcery (0 mins – 27 mins)

Talking about Dave, an interest in Castaneda, loss of interest in sorcery, the use of time & energy on the spiritual path, the recapitulation, gonzo sorcery, a blurry context, a deranging reality, distrusting entertainment, being spellbound, infinite possibilities, Journey to Ixtlan, the quest for power, a poisonous mix, pieces of art, the debunking of Castaneda, books as sorcery, letting go of concepts, reviewing Castaneda in a new context, how human beings come together, the function of the nagual, seeing Dave through the sorcery lens

Part Two: A Hungry Seeker (27 mins – 1 hr 5 mins)

John de Ruiter’s spell, shedding of the sorcerer’s skin, learning curves, progress through therapy and practical work, the best spiritual teacher, a hungry seeker, just a guy, far from a master, looking for a father figure, habitual problems, a supporting energy, a conundrum, human patterns, a crash course with de Ruiter, not getting everything right, two Daves, awareness as currency, power without love, a false template, working with animals, compassion in action, where words fail, a net of interactions, the big dance, the limits of language, relational existence, the trick of language, cat people, probing devices, talking as massage, from mapping hell to mapping reality, the field of life, the trauma in the body, talking therapy, creative process, interfacing with the world, renovating a childhood home, a source of happiness

Part Three: When the Nail Says No  (1 hr 5 mins – 1 hr 30 mins)

House renovations as healing, why sorcery fails, a challenge measured to capacity, treasuring the body, letting the physical world teach us, bringing consciousness to the body, developing presence, aspirations to greatness, finding acceptance, the Fight Club syndrome, everyone thinks they’re the One, the false identity & foreign installation, enjoyment without applause, renovating in a relationship, corrosion & restoration, inherently meaningful work, environmental grounds, discovering right relationship to reality, getting aligned with truth, when the nail says no, obeying the laws of physics, why Jesus was a carpenter, Dave & Jesus.

Part Four: The Impetus to Visit Hell (1 hr 30 mins – end)

Investing in Jesus’ divinity, deathbed conversions, Christian gibberish, when Jesus went to Hell, redeeming Lucifer, renovating Hell, the lost sheep, Black Metal, an invincible character, the path of transgression, a Christian upbringing, a necessary rebellion, an intolerable implant, animal & human sacrifice, Roman Empire culture, the Christian Mafia, the Empire that never ended, the problem with problems, Rene Girard, the innocent scapegoat, the source of all that’s wrong, self-sacrifice & surrender, a good story, maintaining honesty, the value & the cost of truth-telling, mass traumatization, when truth deranges, hero myths, a religion for masses, the first steps of globalization, mainstream Satanism, back to the body, even distribution of consciousness, the impetus to visit Hell

Panu’s music.

Songs: “Knob Wobbler,” by Gib Strange; “Lucy,” by Cullah; “Wake Up Drive Through” by The UpsideDown; “Nyt on MIES!” by Vihainen Miessoittaja; “These Words” by Hazelwood Motel.


8 thoughts on “The Liminalist # 210: (Obeying the Laws Of Physics, with Panu Lyytinen)”

  1. I enjoyed this conversation. At the beginning, it is striking, how different we are as speakers concerning pace. I’m a slow talker and I leave a lot of dead air, which is a suicide if you are in commercial radio. I think after we established what it is we actually do when we use words, we elevated the conversation and went on to something interesting. But all in all it was all good, and I was truly honoured to be a small part of this great podcast!

  2. There’ve been books that attempt to make Castaneda’s sorcery practicable: Victor Sanchez’s The Teachings of Don Carlos: Practical Applications of the Works of Carlos Castaneda and his The Toltec Path of Recapitulation: Healing Your Past to Free Your Soul.

    I’ve looked at both, and they seem operable. The latter involves constructing a “recapitulation box” out of plywood in which one’s recapitulation process is enhanced, maybe like Pyramid Energy popular in the ’70s? Of course, he has conducted workshops in Mexico on these techniques. (I found an internet article on his alleged sexual abuse of women at those workshops.) He’s friends with the composer Philip Glass, by the way, who gives his workshops a favorable blurb.

    My own approach is to regard Castaneda’s works as a template on which to inscribe one’s self-shamanism. For me, this results in a very personal psycho-geography that is completely incommunicable. Somehow, it begins but never concludes.


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