The Liminalist # 62: A Genealogy of Disorder (with Gary Heidt)


Return conversation with liminal literary agent & musician Gary Heidt, on almost signing up with Shoko Asahara, a guru is not an elephant, Kundalini yoga, anal rape, & the Key of Solomon, UFOs & Kundalini, meeting a Gnostic bishop, reading Nag Hammadhi, renegade Catholic Masons & CIA bishops, a schism in the Gnostic underground, UFOs & role-playing, John Micheal Greer and druidry, George Bataille & human sacrifice, deconstructionist cryptofascists in academia, intellectually legitimizing pedophilia, Charles Bernstein, liminal spaces & unconscious drives, taboo & transgression, a tradition of rationalizing unconscious behaviors, desire & trauma, kiddie culture as a lure, Homer’s Odyssey & the hidden trauma of the heroic journey, how circumcision creates warriors Lloyd de Mause & the missing circumcision, the parent aesthetic & the toddler erotic, an aesthetic universe ignored, the creepiness of clowns, puer aeternus & lost innocence, The Enslaved Queen, MKULTRA & Mengele, cognitive dissonance of two incompatible realities, the price of David Icke’s coherent narrative, the split between the aristocracy and the commoners, Cathy O’Brien & the Purple Gang, child pornography, lineages of trauma, an underground aristocracy, The Persistence of the Old Regime, the buffer of the bourgeoisie,  creating an investment banking class, a genealogy of disorder, conspiracy theory vs. social engineering, the internal 1%, a manufactured narrative, creating an image, preventing awakening by reshuffling culture, disillusionment & new engines of hope, Cory Good’s bluebird alien hope machine, Bernie & Trump, a diet of hope, hope-as-entertainment, Marvel movies & MKULTRA, disclosure vs. revelation of the method, selling trauma as self-empowerment.

Gary’s sites:                   

Signature Literary Agency

Songs: “El Mariachi” ” by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Munchers” and “A Fire,” by Fist of Kindness/Gary Heidt; “Fallow Fellow,” by Cullah.

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. Trackbacks are closed, but you can post a comment.


  1. solooshin
    Posted April 16, 2016 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    The part where you mention conspiracy theories as a form of displacement based escapism reminds me of Teeming Brian’s blog-post about the Mythologization of Capitalism since people in ancient times imagined animals which tried to eat them as monsters in the same way modern myths describe how predatory governments and corporations are run by evil aliens or shape-shifting lizards. I also think Bernie and Trump both represent unconscious drives, or longings, coming to the surface just like subcultures which might be constructed around sex do too. This is why it’s difficult to pin down how much social engineering today is external v.s. internal since the whole new age, choose your own manufactured reality fad, muddies the waters a bit. Of course, a slightly more paranoid view of all this could be that mythology creates people more than individuals create myths since your earlier pod-casts about language being a mental parasite that poops out the cultures people use to displace themselves also seem to suggest this.

    • Jasun
      Posted April 16, 2016 at 11:16 am | Permalink

      Yes. “Teeming Brian” is another guy who agreed to do the podcast and then never got back to me.

  2. Posted April 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    I read the Odyssey 2-3 years ago. Odysseus’ son Telemachus is a young man when his father returns to Ithaca after a 20-year absence and unless memory fails me they massacre the suitors together in the dining hall. It’s gory and shocking but doesn’t involve childhood trauma.

    • Jasun
      Posted April 16, 2016 at 10:12 pm | Permalink
      • Posted April 17, 2016 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

        Endless wars do breed generational trauma and generalized madness – that’s not a magical insight. That climactic chapter in the Odyssey actually shocked me when I read it – it was as graphic as any Clint Eastwood western. I thought the Odyssey was a poetic text all about female monsters, Scylla and Charibdis, Circe turning men into pigs, and Penelope at her loom being faithful and resisting all offers. The massacre at the end is often downplayed or presented as a joyful homecoming and restoration when in fact it’s a bloodbath and Odysseus emerges as a sociopath, and is followed by an idyllic denouement (dissociated trance). As for the son, he’s been living a sheltered existence up to then mainly under his mother’s influence in Ithaca, a remote agrarian island in the Ionian sea…

  3. Kutamun
    Posted April 16, 2016 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    Listening to you guys i felt like a dude huddled in a twister shelter in Kansas, after marshal law has been declared in the U.S , and the elites have at last overtly seized the reins of the executive , for my safety . I am huddled in my storm shelter while black armoured cars patrol the neighbourhood , furiously twiddling the knobs of my radio until i pick up a faint signal from radio freedom international , and its you guys talking , very faintly and with much backup interference. My heart soars as i realise that there are still free people out there , somewhere , and they are conversing .

    BTW , you dont sound very well , Jasun , are you getting enough sleep.
    I shouldnt wonder why the rest of the alt- network is reluctant to come on the podcast , it must be very frightening for them , the prospect of examining and admitting their own place in the memeplex / paradigm

    • Jasun
      Posted April 17, 2016 at 9:34 am | Permalink

      Serving the common people for hours every day and (sorting through their used clothing) is taking its toll on my ego, K-man. My guess is that’s what you’re picking up rather than any bodily issue (tho it is exhausting). Thanks for the concern, and fr this comment, which is a lovely visceral/dramatic way to appraise a podcast.

  4. thwack
    Posted April 17, 2016 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Of course, a slightly more paranoid view of all this could be that mythology creates people more than individuals create myths since your earlier pod-casts about language being a mental parasite that poops out the cultures people use to displace themselves also seem to suggest this. — solooshin

    I don’t think thats a paranoid view. Reality is one big theater with most of us walking around in some measure of drag. The only ones without costume seem to be the retards and those whom for whatever reason have become so sensitive they spend all their time “costume struck”. Of course, a slightly more paranoid view of all this could be that lies creates people more than individuals create lies?



    Then whyyoulookin?

    So I can see.

    See what?

    See what Im lookin at.

  5. Page
    Posted April 17, 2016 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Ok, I might be “very pre-occupied” (but definitely not obsessed … thanks for not calling that) with the “circumcision thing”, Jasun. Yes, I do have a tendency to put more focus on the underdog (the male child, especially in my birth country U.S.A., who has been unnecessarily cut into on his penis shortly after his birth, of which there are many many millions of them/us). As far as I’m concerned it is one of the deepest darkest shadow-spots of Amurican kulture, which means that so few people are willing (or able, rather) to go there and talk openly about it, most probably because it doesn’t feel comfortable or safe to do so or perhaps because the darkness of the super-sized circumcision machine called “America” just hasn’t been seen/recognized by them yet . But, a slight correction to what you said about my “obsession” …

    My problem with de Mause was not so much that he hadn’t ever gotten to the topic of circumcision (I knew that he had … a little bit) but the problem was that he (so I thought) did not ever get into the adult-male-mouth-on-baby-bloody-genital part of the bris ritual that happens in a few a sects within the Judaic tradition, especially considering one of de Mause’s main areas of focus; the historical context of socially-accepted (and/or socially-hidden) assaults against children, especially in the realm of blood rituals and sexual assault rituals.

    Well, it turns out that I was wrong. In his 1974 (year of my birth!) book, “The History of Childhood”, de Mause did briefly touch upon that specific oral ritual that happens within the “covenant of covenants”, the circumcision / bris ritual. I stand corrected. Here’s a quote from the book (page 25 – 26):


    Another example of the double image was in circumcision. As is well known, Jews, Egyptians, Arabs, and others circumcised the foreskin of boys. The reasons given for this are manifold, but all of them can be covered by the double image of projection and reversal. To begin with, such mutilations of children by adults always involve projection and punishment to control projected passions. As Philo put it in the first century, circumcision was for “the excision of passions, which bind the mind. For since among all passions that of intercourse between man and woman is greatest, the lawgivers have commended that that instru-ment, which serves this intercourse, be mutilated, pointing out, that these powerful passions must be bridled, and thinking not only this, but all passions would be controlled through this one.”(99) Moses Maimonides agrees:

    “I believe one of the reasons for circumcision was the diminution of sexual intercourse and the weakening of the sexual organs; its purpose was to restrict the activities of this organ and to leave it at rest as much as possible. The true purpose of circumcision was to give the sexual organ that kind of physical pain as not to impair its natural function or the potency of the individual, but to lessen the power of passion and of too great desire. “(100)

    The reversal element in circumcision can be seen in the glans-as-nipple theme embedded in the details of one version of the ritual. The infant’s penis is rubbed to make it erect, and the foreskin is split, either by the mohel’s fingernail or with a knife, and then torn all around the glans. Then the mohel sucks the blood off the glans.(101) This is done for the same reason that everyone kissed little Louis’s penis-because the penis, and more particularly the glans, is the mother’s nipple returned, and the blood is her milk.(102) The idea of the child’s blood as having magic-milk qualities is an old one, and underlies many sacrificial acts, but rather than examine this complex problem here I would like to concentrate on the main idea of circumcision as the coming-out of the glans-as-nipple. It is not generally known that the exposure of the glans was a problem for more than just the circumcising nations. To the Greeks and Romans, the glans was considered sacred; the sight of it “struck terror and wonder in the heart of man,”(103) and so they either tied up the prepuce with a string, which was called kynodesme, or else pinned it closed with a fibula, a clasp, which was called inflbulation.(104) Evidence of infibulation, both for “modesty” and “to restrain lust,” can also be found in the Renaissance and modern times. (105)

    What’s strange about the psychohistory website, which focusses on the works of de Mause, is that there is a slight change to a small section of the above quote — perhaps it was an A.I. auto-correction that wasn’t caught or perhaps changed — accidentally or not — by the hands of a human creature. See if you notice change as it now stands on the History of Childhood page of the psychohistory website :

    “The infant’s penis is rubbed to make it erect, and the foreskin is split, either by the mother’s fingernail or with a knife, and then torn all around the glans. Then the mother sucks the blood off the glans.”

    Oops, the word “mohel” — the Hebrew name for the professional circumciser (and sometimes oral suctioner) — was changed to the word “mother” in the above quote as it now stands at the psychohistory website.

    (here’s the link to the actual correct quote from “inside the book” at google books : HERE )

    It’s not the mother who rubs the baby’s penis to make it erect, it’s the mohel. It’s not the mother who sucks the blood off the glans, it’s the mohel. Strange “typo”, right?

    While , to me, it’s a disturbing thing either way, I would consider it more of a “hacking” when an adult male mohel does it. The exchange of fluids between the mother and child is something that I consider as “the way it’s supposed to be” (not that I think a mother should be sucking her baby’s bloody penis) , but when the mohel inserts his saliva into the bloodstream of the child in that way, there is a “hacking” that takes place, IMO, which disrupts the natural fluid exchange — the bond — between the baby boy and his mother, and makes the boy much more “under control” of a masculine force at way too young of an age, IMO. This is more of a shamanic perspective of that ritual , though, I admit that it’s not one that I fully have a grasp on.

    There’s much more to say on this topic, but I don’t want to appear to have moved from the realm of the “pre-occupied” to the realm of the “obsessed”. 😉

    • Jasun
      Posted April 17, 2016 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

      Grisly material and yes, quite a leap from mohel to mother; have you contacted the site?

      I haven’t considered the saliva/hacking angel yet tho it could relate to my own current interpretation, as discussed in the next podcast, with Mark Golding, that of maintaining the paternal lineage by turning male children into vessels for ancestral fragments….

  6. Page White
    Posted April 17, 2016 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    “… have you contacted the site?”

    no (and not planning on it). I’m going to leave that Freudian banana peel on the floor and let someone else deal with it if he or she so chooses.

  7. Kutamun
    Posted April 17, 2016 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Hi Thwack , you are trenching on religion if you say the myths are themselves already embedded in waterworld and busy churning out culture and language
    I’m ok with that

    • thwack
      Posted April 18, 2016 at 10:35 am | Permalink

      Kutamun, I don’t really know what Im talking about; but I suspect if you stole a newborn from an orphanage and created and entirely fictional history for it which included its father being a nobel prize winning sperm donor and its mother being some 140 IQ top secret spy who was killed doing something great and vast… and it has to remain secret;

      and everybody played along with it including Obama…

      The child would believe it and act accordingly.

      Most of us play the part we are given because there is a beating waiting for those of us who don’t.

      • Jasun
        Posted April 19, 2016 at 10:47 am | Permalink

        Surely there are parts/personae that more closely fit our essential natures and those that do not?

        • thwack
          Posted April 20, 2016 at 3:40 am | Permalink

          Sure there are, thats what closets are for.

  8. Kutamun
    Posted April 18, 2016 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Ha ha , i need to see your real birth certificate , mate

    • thwack
      Posted April 20, 2016 at 3:57 am | Permalink

      It would have been easier before the internet; but today how difficult would it really be for an unmarried ghetto mom to construct a heroic fake “dad” for her bastard spawn?

      Should I start that company?

      Listen to this testimonial from one of our satisfied client: “my little Timmy was doing poorly in school. Starting fights, torturing kittens…he even lit our Christmas tree on fire; but thanks to, he is now a model child, and wants to be an astronaut just like his fake hero dad.


  9. Kutamun
    Posted April 21, 2016 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    ah , that American entrepreneurial spirit shining through !
    To quote a funny bastard
    ” i’ll just get my coat ”

    • thwack
      Posted April 22, 2016 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

      Several years ago I somehow found myself reading a blog called “cryokids”; a place where “test tube babies” could share their pain, hurt and frustration over their mothers decision to pick their daddy out of a catalogue as if he were a sofa or automobile.

      In addition they also wanted to counter the “unicorns and rainbowdolphin” marketing the industry uses to promote itself. There were some very interesting letters because despite evidence and guarantees they were the product of top shelf semen; many of them expressed sadness and sometime anger over their mothers decision. One girl even said there was a painting of a fisherman on a boat in her house and that she made up a fictional story about him for the children at school to explain how her dad died.

      The children are not allowed access to very much information about their fathers; but thanks to the internet, they can use their fathers “reference number” to find their half siblings (if they want to be found?).

      I wonder if the women who choose the procedure are informed that one of the traits their donor may pass onto any potential offspring is the ability to walk away from their child and never look back?

      • Jasun
        Posted April 22, 2016 at 6:11 pm | Permalink


        • Posted April 24, 2016 at 7:17 am | Permalink

          Artificial wombs are the obvious solution.

          • thwack
            Posted April 24, 2016 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

            The solution to what?

          • Posted April 24, 2016 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

            Artificial wombs are the answer to the trauma of not knowing who your sperm donor dad was:

          • thwack
            Posted April 24, 2016 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

            But isn’t the source of the childrens trauma based on women using sperm from “donors” who don’t want to be found by any potential offspring?

            Personally I rank artificial wombs up there with; a manned mission to Mars, cold fusion and world peace; in other words, sh*t that ain’t gonna happen.

            Oh yeah, “driverless cars?” those things are gonna be rock, insurance fraud and jaywalker magnets; good luck with that.

          • Posted April 24, 2016 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

            If you can imagine it, it probably exists in some universe or timeline, somewhere.

            Years ago i read a very funny story about a sperm donor who receives a visit from one of his offspring who somehow tracks him down and moves in next door… the boy is everything his donor most despises and fears: a vegan feminist with a massive chip on his shoulder … i forget how it ended

  10. James
    Posted April 22, 2016 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Thank you Jasun for these podcasts. I’m just paranoid enough to appreciate them. I share your fascination with mind control, social engineering, manufactured reality etc, although I’m extremely wary of those who offer explanations. You seem to navigate this area with great subtlety and sympathy. Even when I don’t accept the conclusions arrived at, I find the discussions fascinating and useful. Please stay with it.

    • Jasun
      Posted April 22, 2016 at 9:40 am | Permalink

      Thanks James; all seeming conclusions are only pauses for breath….

Post a Comment

Your email is never published nor shared. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>


%d bloggers like this: