The Liminalist # 68: Survival Alters (with Nalyd Khezr Bey)


First part of two-part conversation with long-time follower Nalyd Khezr Bey (NKB), on the power of voice, The Lucid View and a writer’s frustration, Crowley in Sicily, was Crowley advocating child sexual abuse?, the trap of occultism, aggressive purging, the academic voice, writing The Blood Poets as a Trojan Horse, Lucid View, Aeolus Kephas, Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger, NKB reads Lucid View & Matrix Warrior, NKB’s occultism, the purpose of this conversation, the fallacy of moving on, communicating through text, triggered communication Horsley-Strieber-Crowley, negative identity & scapegoating, the danger of playing with ideas, corrective fans, dogmatism & liminalism, crucial fictions & belief, falling in love with ideas, trusting bodily experiences, taking Strieber to heart, Strieber’s doublethink, The Super Natural & the traumatic secret, childhood memory, circumcision trauma, the self-care system of the psyche, the limits of a fragmentary viewpoint, NKB’s dreams, an obsession with memory, Grof’s matrices, remodeling abduction experiences, the need to communicate, pre-verbal distress, life in the womb, being split, survival alters, waking alters.

Songs: “El Mariachi” by The Freak Fandango Orchestra; “Twin Suns” by Dlay &  “Perception Through Comatose State” by Arcane Waves (Mash up); “Hawaii Bus” by My Bubba and Mi.

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  1. thwack
    Posted June 6, 2016 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    This music is delicious Jasun.

  2. thwack
    Posted June 7, 2016 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Jasun, why do you think circumcision results in some kind of trauma that shapes the rest of a mans life?

    Are you saying I wouldn’t be an A-hole if I was “intact?”

    Ok, so it hurt really bad; but I got over it, and if I didn’t, what do I do about it now?

    I have a little “bump” at the base of my pinky on my right hand, it was going to be an extra finger; they took that too.


    • Jasun
      Posted June 7, 2016 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

      Before I can answer that, maybe you can explain why you think otherwise? Is it because you think that circumcision is somehow less damaging than other less traditional forms of mutilation?Or that you consider babies a) like adults who just grit their teeth and suffer the pain, take a Tylenol and then forget all about it; b) so insensible and devoid of any form of awareness that there’s no psyche there to be imprinted; or c) in some open enlightened state in which pain just passes through them without having anything to stick to?

      Very few of us have memory of being a baby to refer to, but some of us do know, if only by close observation of current patterns, that our deepest and most compelling (and restricting) needs and fears have nothing to do with any conscious part of ourselves and can be traced back to early imprints (in my own case, a deep need for love and validation combined with a fear of abandonment/rejection that can be traced back to early neglect by a drunken/depressed mother). Knowing this, how would we think that being held down by force and having one’s penis sliced open and a large part of it torn away, in adherence to some bizarre and wholly arbitrary religious ritual (or barbaric & irrational medical practice) would not leave a deep imprint on the infant psyche that is just beginning to form?

      Imagine how an infant body’s reacts to that mutilation, and then think about how this is one of the very first patterns (or programs) to get installed in that body, meaning that all subsequent patterns of behavior are going to be laid down on top of it and essentially in-formed by it. Isn’t the foundation the most important part of any structure?

      As for what to do about it, that’s not my department. Those who do, don’t teach, and too much tell ruins the show. 🙂

      • thwack
        Posted June 8, 2016 at 4:28 am | Permalink

        “Imagine how an infant body’s reacts to that mutilation, and then think about how this is one of the very first patterns (or programs) to get installed in that body, meaning that all subsequent patterns of behavior are going to be laid down on top of it and essentially in-formed by it. Isn’t the foundation the most important part of any structure?”– JH

        I say yes.

        And this understanding is where I get the probable cause to suspect the “procedure” has some ultimate value or purpose?

        Do you think all trauma is harmful?

        Some of my best revelations have been the result of trauma; I think they power my ability to look people in the eye and tell them the truth; and not get weak and equivocate, back up, vacillate, tell people what they wanna hear…

        If I took a severe beat down for a revelation why should I ever lie? I paid “cash” for that…

        Is circumcision only pointless and brutal because the baby doesn’t know what is being done to it at the time?

        What if it is done when you are 9 like some savage tribes where it is part of an initiation into a “warrior cult” complete with ceremony, pomp, circumstance, cash, prizes, your own AK47…?

        “Im 18 and I don’t know what I want”
        (You will when you get the sh*t slapped outta ya)

        BTW, do they still smack babies on the ass to make them cry when they are delivered?

        • Jasun
          Posted June 8, 2016 at 9:16 am | Permalink

          As far as I know that practice has been discontinued. Joseph Chilton Pearce wrote convincingly about how it was the “hidden” cause of crib death for several generations, due to spinal damage.

          The meaning of trauma presupposes harm; i.e., harmless trauma is an oxymoron. I don’t personally agree that trauma is ever beneficial per se, but since even the most organic, natural life entails elements of trauma it apparently IS an element of physical existence that ideally relates to the toughening up of an organism for optimal survival needs. So if you want to create warriors or hunters then it makes sense not to overly protect children from natural dangers (in a primal sort of lifestyle). That’s very different from a technological society in which hunters & warriors are only needed to maintain a war engine (military industrial control system), & the use of directed/contrived trauma to create super-geniuses or charismatics, i.e., to argue that there are spiritual benefits of trauma.

          I haven’t seen any for myself; on the contrary spiritual unfoldment seems to depend on being in a relaxed, accepting, non-survival based state.

          What’s your experience of trauma-based revelations?

          The closest I can speak of would be the death of my cat, & other loved ones, which altho it could be called traumatic in some sense, is simply part of the natural order of things, so I can’t say my cat’s dying harmed me in any way.

          • thwack
            Posted June 9, 2016 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

            “What’s your experience of trauma-based revelations?”–JH

            I’ll spare y’all the “black and ugly” with this one:

            I didn’t go to the dentist for the first time until I was 23.

            Since my parents never took me, I assumed everything was fine. My dad was in the military and the dental care was free so money was not an issue. My friends were always going and talking about cavities, braces, needles and how scary/painful it was…

            Nobody ever hinted that I needed to go; and even if they did, my mother knew best, right?

            Later at 23 a person at work told me our company had free dental ( I think she was shocked when I told her I had never been to a dentist).

            So I went to hers, expecting a “walk in the park”; instead I got Omaha Beach. They cleaned my teeth and filled 7 cavities all in the same day; it was a terrible experience for a virgin dental patient like myself. The needles, the scraping, the drilling, the vibration, my mouth agape for 2 hours; at one point I thought I smelled smoke?

            I couldn’t talk, couldn’t ask questions… I didn’t know what was going on, I was drewling, I couldn’t swallow, tools and some guys hands in my mouth…

            Worst of all, I had no idea when it was gonna end.

            I walked out of that place shell shocked and stunned. Make no mistake, “I took mines like a man”; but all I could think was: “why didn’t anybody tell me?”

            That night I fell into a very deep sleep.

            For years anytime I had to see a dentist, I had anger and resentment issues with my mother because she never took me even though it was free.

            As a child if I had known what the dentist was about?

            My first cavity would have been my LAST.

            Luckily, I have strong tropical dragonfly Australopithecus Robustus teeth (as evidenced by my oral surgeons hand shaking as he gripped them pliers attempting to extract my wisdom tooth- he said it was huge-)

            Later on I forgave my mother because her behavior towards dentistry with me may have been an expression of her own dental trauma growing up.

            Is individuation the process for determining which traumas are your own, and which ones were given to you by your parents or the larger culture? (without you knowing it)

            Guns, water, snakes, sex, racism, electricity, drugs, doctors, dogs…which of these are your own organic fears and which did your parents covertly pass onto you undetected?

            I think there may be another type of trauma that occurs when other people tell you or act as tho something that happens to you is your fault, when it really isn’t. This occurs when weak people project their fears onto you in order to compensate for their anxiety that it could happen to them.

            For example,

            if you get raped, these people will automatically say it has to be your fault, they will blame you regardless of the facts or evidence. This position is a defense mechanism they use to protect themselves. They have to say and act as if its your fault because if its NOT your fault, that means it could happen to ANYBODY, which includes themselves; and they ain’t trying to to imagine that.

            Your own friends will sometimes retard your abilities (and even imagination) by projecting their fears onto you.

  3. Lcy
    Posted June 8, 2016 at 9:54 am | Permalink
    • thwack
      Posted June 9, 2016 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

      Ok, you win,

      Im now officially traumatized; should I start working on that drinking problem I never had?

      Kick the dog when I get home?

      Shout at the children to “get off my lawn!”

  4. Jason Wilcox
    Posted June 13, 2016 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    “When we can’t convey our experience we just try and let the other person have it” (1:08)
    – this very accurately describes what the singer (whom I refer to in my podcast) did to me. She made me feel what she was feeling, which I can only describe as raw anger. For days on end I woke up with this feeling, until I finally decided to stop it – it was making me feel ill – and luckily for me, that has seemed to work. Whereas I don’t think it can work for her because the anger and hurt exist on an unconscious level, and therefore are much less easily dispelled. (I don’t think she was consciously aware of what she was doing – for one thing, she was an insomniac – as was Peter Alphon – which served to blur the lines between dream and reality in her dealings with other people.)
    Some thoughts arising from this: I recall a supervisor of mine at university (who is a poet) remarking on the cliched phrase: “I know exactly how you feel”, often used when someone has had a bad experience, bereavement, etc. He said this is not really true, since how can we really know how someone else is feeling? At that time I had not had the above experience and so could not refer to it…

    N.B. Lenore Terr has written about this sort of feral communication in relation to Hitchcock’s films (I think it was in her book “Too Scared to Cry”) and speculates that in his films he was trying to re-create the fear that he felt when he was locked up in a prison cell (by his father, as a practical joke!) when a very young boy – I think she could be right, especially when one considers that Hitchcock made reference to this episode on the occasion of his receipt of the American Film Institute’s Life Achievement Award in 1979, shortly before his death.

    • Jasun
      Posted June 13, 2016 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

      Yes, I think that it’s the primary motivation for artists in general & filmmakers specifically, to recreate the experiences they were unable to integrate and cause others to have them. It’s like catharsis combined with off-loading, passing on the charge, a form of low-level abuse at worst, transference (& mutual catharsis) at best. Right there is the basis for a good working model for gauging whether a work is artistic or exploitative, or where on that spectrum it lies. I noticed this “complex” (the need to recrate one’s traumatic experiences & inflict them on/communicate them to others) when reading Friedkin’s autobio also:

      Seems to also be a key to understanding the overlap between MKULTRA & culture?

      • thwack
        Posted June 15, 2016 at 5:57 am | Permalink

        Yes, I think that it’s the primary motivation for artists in general & filmmakers specifically, to recreate the experiences they were unable to integrate and cause others to have them.– JH

        is this behavior incorrect?

        If someone is asking you to consume their feces, whats wrong with serving them a steaming hot plate of your own?

        • Jasun
          Posted June 15, 2016 at 8:34 am | Permalink

          I think you answered your own question.

          • thwack
            Posted June 15, 2016 at 10:18 am | Permalink

            What are my option when i fail to integrate an experience?

  5. Jason Wilcox
    Posted June 14, 2016 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    I must read Friedkin’s autiobio – certainly his film “Cruising” is remarkable (and personal/revealing?), a very “free” adaptation of its source material, which would appear to blur the lines between hero/villain, real/unreal.

    I also recall Colin Wilson saying that (serial) killers are failed artists – though I don’t think he had the
    necessary literary skills to argue this convincingly – and there may be some truth in this. Peter Alphon always considered himself an artist, and (at least some of the time) said his murder confession was a piece of fiction, yet it brought him his only claim to fame/infamy – his name surfaced again recently with the death of Valerie Storie:–obituary/

  6. Jasun
    Posted June 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    What are my option when i fail to integrate an experience?

    Dost thou equate the need to defecate with the desire to make others consume thy feces?

    • thwack
      Posted June 15, 2016 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

      You’re reading my book upside down Jasun. Im not equating anything. Im attempting to express the utility of teaching chefs to improve their recipes by forcing them to eat their own cooking?

      This is why I asked you if the behavior is correct?

      For example; Ive run experiments on racist websites where I come in as a hard core racist and wreak so much havoc the racists actually start asking me “why do you hafta make everything about race?”

      This is the “steaming hot plate of feces” I force them to eat.

      Its interesting because in response, some of the racists start trying to take a rational approach to racism, and thats when it all falls apart (that also when the blog owners bans me; see how that works?)

      This is why I asked if its correct behavior?

      Most people have never had to experience the effects of their own “artillery”; they just fire and forget.

      Not me.

      Nothing focuses the mind like a round falling short.

      Its ugly; as it should be.

      I think Im slightly titillated by the prospect of annoying people who would hang me from a tree, for fun, if they could get away with it;

      Must be all them feces Ive consumed?

      I’lll get my coat.

      • Jasun
        Posted June 15, 2016 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

        “Is this correct behavior?” is not a question I’m likely to answer unless it pertains to a very specific context and act that involves me personally, i.e., is it correct behavior for you to call me at home at 3 in the morning (no).

        Your question refers to a metaphor (making others eat their own shit) relating to your own behavior in circles that don’t include me, so all I can say is, I dunno: how’s it working out for you?

        For myself the most correct use of feces, whoever it belongs to, is to flush it and turn away. Unless you are going to run your car on it.

        • thwack
          Posted June 16, 2016 at 10:18 am | Permalink

          “Is this correct behavior?” is not a question I’m likely to answer unless it pertains to a very specific context and act that involves me personally,”

          Like the time those FBI agents questioned me about you?

          They spelled your name wrong.

          • Jasun
            Posted June 16, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

            yeah that happens all the time. : Z

        • Posted June 29, 2016 at 6:44 am | Permalink

          For myself the most correct use of feces, .. , is to run your car on it unless you are going flush it and turn away.

  7. Posted June 29, 2016 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    Re 1571 referring to 1522 .. i should have included the argument that running cars is in large measure a continuation of that primary turning away … alienation, heapifying .. scent subjunktifyin deallures, reversal of scent offensive
    .. for more symptoms check a culture for music that misses a maxmuscle timing count
    the wall and dyke consolidation footstomp or fairis perpetua musical chairlegshake … i better quit while i’m too way a ways ahead …

  8. Chris
    Posted July 19, 2016 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Hey Jasun,

    Thanks for the great show. And man you pick stellar music. I tried to track down the piece you played at approx. 6:20, but your credits don’t seem to match. Which one was that?

    And btw – I keep hearing you express regret at having written Lucid View. I find that ridiculous and disrespectful to your former self. I am an artist and fiction writer so maybe my POV is different, but I encourage you to view yourself as a river and not as a platform. What you create at any particular time represents you only at that moment, not as an ossified entity. I think this is NKB’s issue as well and the core of his dissatisfaction with writing / writer’s block, ie will not write until he arrives at his Final Belief, which is a contradiction in terms unless of course you want to end up like a hideous fundamentalist. I really respect your work (ALL of it, not just the recent stuff) and I hate to see people hate on themselves. The former Kephas is worth more than that. ‘He’ was doing his flawed best as he saw it at the time. Cut him some slack!

    • Jasun
      Posted July 19, 2016 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

      Aeolus thanks you.

      I wonder how a master carpenter feels when he comes across one of his first and crudest tables? I guess it depends on the carpenter. I really wanted to make the revised edition cheaper than the original edition but Adventures Untld didnt want me to cut into their sales. I may reduce the cost anyway at this point. That first version is a terrible mess & I squirm inside to think about people reading it.

      • Chris
        Posted July 20, 2016 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

        Understood. That squirming is definitely an inevitable byproduct of growth!

      • thwack
        Posted July 21, 2016 at 12:55 pm | Permalink


        I wonder how a master carpenter feels when he comes across one of his first and crudest tables? I guess it depends on the carpenter.

        When I listen to my oldest “songs” of me playing guitar, sure, they’re corny and crude; but they are also much more authentic because they were made long before I had the ability to copy other musicians, have a playlist of 5000 songs on my computer or engage in drunken, drug fueled 20 minute solos composed of rifs of all my favorite guitar lords…

        All those years of hard work just so I could sound as predictable and mediocre as everybody else…

        Theres no way to put the sh*t back in the horse.

        (((shaking my head)))

    • Jasun
      Posted July 19, 2016 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

      Oh. the reason the song doesn’t match is that I mashed up two songs together, both linked in show notes.

      • Chris
        Posted July 20, 2016 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

        Wow. Awesome job mixing. I’ll have to check those out again and listen for the constituent parts. That mash up has some incredible atmosphere and build.

        • Jasun
          Posted July 20, 2016 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

          Thanks, I cant really take the credit; I just messed around in FMA playing songs simultaneously in separate windows and found a pair that went together. Took all of 5 mins. But I agree it turned out great. I’ll do some more, that’s if the mojo abides.

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